Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

***EDIT ADDED A NEW QUESTION***


I was playing a hand today that made me think about some subtelties of handling different player profiles on certain boards.

I conconcted a hand which I think touches on some useful hand reading concepts and am curious how the 2+2 community answers them.

I think these answers are clear, but there may be a few things I havent considered. The last question is probabily the most ambiguous.
Please answer the questions before you read anyone elses responses. Please explain why you chose what you chose.

Assume your image is of a 27/18/2.4 TAG that doesn’t get out of line very often... But is capable of doing so.

Player profiles you are up against

a) a semi weak tight-nit 21/14/1.8 that doesnt get out of line, but is capable of bluffing occasionally. Uncreative and predictable.

b) a semi passive player 50/15/0.8 who shows down fairly light and peels any 2 cards on the flop.

c) a super LAGTARD 70/50/3.5 that plays completly unpredictable and extremly agressive. Unbeliveably random call downs with 5 high, capping the turn with nothing randomly.. Slowplaying at weird times.

d) An incredibly talented LAGTAG that strikes fear into your soul.. You had a nightmare about him last night because hes that damn good. 32/21/2.8

Questions

#1
You are in the BB with T9s and are raised by the SB.
Who would you be most inclined to re-raise and why?

#2
Assume you just call:

Flop is QJ4 with a flush draw
SB bets, you raise, SB calls

Turn is a J
Sb checks, you bet, SB calls

River is a 4 (flush draw not completed)
SB checks..

Out of the players in question 1, who do you have the most profitable bet against? Second most? What are all the players likely ranges right now?

#3
Assume the same situation as the last hand
But the river is a Q

All of a sudden SB unsuspectedly bets...

Who are you ahead of the most right now? Who has you beat the most right now? Who should you be most inclined to raise against?

#4
Assume river is a Q but your hand is now J5s

Which player profiles should you raise against? Which should you call? Which should you fold?

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]

#1
You are in the BB with T9s and are raised by the SB.
Who would you be most inclined to re-raise and why?


[/ QUOTE ]

The only one I'd consider 3-betting this against is the nit because if I have control he might fold out a better hand. He probably loosens up here as well because he knows he's supposed to steal blinds. He probably still plays weak tight post-flop though. Against the other players I have a hand with no showdown value and they will make it difficult for me to bluff.

[ QUOTE ]

#2
Assume you just call:

Flop is QJ4 with a flush draw
SB bets, you raise, SB calls

Turn is a J
Sb checks, you bet, SB calls

River is a 4 (flush draw not completed)
SB checks..

Out of the players in question 1, who would you be most inclined to bet against? Second most?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll go with the super LAGTARD on this one, who is hoping his 9 high is good.

I guess I'll go with the nit for my second choice. He's the only one I could see folding A or K high on this board.

[ QUOTE ]

#3
Assume the same situation as the last hand
But the river is a Q

All of a sudden SB unsuspectedly bets...

Who are you ahead of the most right now? Who has you beat the most right now? Who should you be most inclined to raise against?

[/ QUOTE ]

The passive player is most likely to have us beat now. He probably had top pair the whole way, but was afraid we had a better one. Now that he hits the best hand he bets out. This line could also be taken by the good LAGTAG. He was getting ready to hit us on the turn, but then a bad card came so he waited. Now he bets out so that you don't check through A high. I would be most inclined to raise against the LAGTARD because he probably thinks this is a good bluffing card even though none of his previous actions suggest he has it.

[ QUOTE ]

#4
Assume river is a Q but your hand is now J5s

Which player profiles should you raise against? Which should you call? Which should you fold?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how having the J changes much here. The passive player still has us beat and it's probably a fold, but call during the hand. Against the nit I will call because he might bluff. Against the super LAGTARD I'm raising. Against the LAGTAG this spot sucks and it's probably closer to fold than anything.

I guess I'm the only one who thinks that LAGTAGs don't get tricky in this spot. Put yourself in the shoes of the LAGTAG and you're against a player like Heisenb3rg. Are you really going to bet that river without a Q hoping you can level him?

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

with a very skilled lagtag on my right I would usually switch tables. he is going to be shutting me out of the pot a lot preflop

1.
I would be most likely to reraise the LAGTAG. he is likely opening a very wide range and it will be easier to play vs him with the initiative.

I think a lot of people are going to say reraise the nit here, but his range is tight and it is going to be pretty easy to play vs him postflop

2.
I'll do the ranges first,
nit: 9Q TQ maybe KQ, 55-TT, TK AK AT, FD with hands like AXss KXss
passive: Ax, any pair, any flush or straight draw
lagtard: Ax Kx, 22-TT, sometimes Qx Jx, any flush or straight draw (discounted because I expect him to go nuts with them sometimes)
lagtag: Ax, 22-TT, AK AT, KT 9T and flush draws (discounted).

I'd bet vs everyone because there are so many busted draws that beat us. in terms of how easy the bet is,
nit > LAGTAG > passive > maniac

edit: now that I think about it, I don't think we should bet vs the maniac. I don't think he's ever folding a better hand

3. the passive guy definitely has us beat the most, followed by the nit.

I think we beat the LAGTAG the most and should raise him. he isn't representing a strong hand and is smart enough to know that we have a lot of busted draws. I can see him betting with a counterfeited hand

tempting to raise the maniac too but I think he's much more likely to be b/c something like Kx or Ax

4.
raise the LAGTAG and the maniac. call vs the passive guy. I wouldn't fold vs anyone, but it would be closest to a fold vs the nit

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

Nice post. I'll take a shot.

1. Hmmm.. first question and I've already changed my mind 3 times. I wanted to say C, then B, but now I've settled on A. C you could probably show a profit raising given your hand value and position, but he'll put you in some tough spots and your hand has little to no showdown value. You'll most likely end up making desperate river bluffs on missed draws in hopes he'll fold his K high, but he won't.

B I think you could be all right. Really depends on his SB stealing standards. Lots of these types aren't too creative from the SB.

I settled on A because he's got reasonable enough stats and probably knows the value of stealing. So his range is fairly wide. 3betting accomplishes two things. Your hand is likely a winner versus his range given your position, and it puts him on the defensive. Protecting your future blinds is a good thing.

Note, I'm pretty sure I'm a bigger fan of calling and popping most flops instead of 3betting.

2. B, C, A, D, respectively. B can get to the river with lots of hands that include bad draws and weak overs. He probably only calls with pairs and A-high.

Against C, you'd be making a "value bluff". There's a decent chance he's on a weak draw given his weak turn action. Depending on my exact read I'd be checking a lot, though. Lots of these guys love c/r'ing this kind of card, forcing you to fold or 3bet. Most the hands you'd lose to he calls with anyway, and I bet he calls a fair amount of chopping hands. So just live with the chop.

Sorry, don't currently have time to go through all the ranges. You're spewing big time if you fire again versus D or A, though.

3. You're ahead of C the most and maybe D getting tricky. Raising is a disaster, I think. C is probably you're only profitable call.

4. Never fold. Raise everybody except B, I think. Fold if A or D 3bets (D might be a call depending on the read/past battles). Call or maybe even cap if C 3bets.

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

#1 A,D,B,C. While the lagtag's range is wider, he'll make more correct call downs and put more pressure on your postflop. By 3 betting A, you induce him to make more FTOP mistakes postflop. vs B and C, fold equity isnt as important as your implied odds.

#2 D,A,(BC). The Lagtag is probably capable of calling the turn and river with A high or worse due to the drawy nature of the board, but plan on folding the river because he thinks that you think hes pretty much showdown bound when he calls the turn. Also, he's more likely to put in more action with a Q on the flop. The nit could easily have a weak queen, or at least a showdown hand once he calls the turn. I expect to get called a lot by the maniac and the passive guy too.

3. This is a really strange spot. Honestly I just expect to never be good and always muck here. Id guess youre ahead of D the most because he realizes when he needs to bluff and can get away with it.

4. Raise against the spaz; hes bet/calling A high, he has a Q like never based on the way he played it. Just call vs the others; theyre either bet/folding or have you crushed.

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

#1

The LAGTAG. I would consider 3-betting the nit if he folds too much postflop or if my image is strong vs him.

3-betting vs the maniac and the 50/15 guy is terrible. Against the maniac who plays randomly postflop you shouldnt bloat the pot unless you have SD value and can call him down.

Against the other idiot you shouldnt 3-bet cuz you dont have an eq edge and you wont increase your FE.



#2

I will bet vs all but the maniac.

The bet is most profitable against the nit as he is the one most likely to have a draw.

The 50/15 has a huge range

The LAGTAG would prolly have made more noise with a good draw.

The maniac never folds a better hand but pretty much has any2.


#3

I would guess that my eq is best vs the maniac and then the 50/15 guy. The nits range is heavily biases towards high cards and he is prolly not creative enough to bet 77 here.

I dont think I would raise any of them. If the nit or LAGTAG bets they either have a worse hand or a better hand which isnt folding. The is true to a lesser degree for the maniac and the fish.

EDIT: I'd call vs the LAGTAG and the maniac. Fold vs the nit and the passive fish. I'd expect the LAGTAG to have A high or a counterfeited pp always when he bets here. Possibly the same hand as us.


#4

I'd love a raise the most vs the maniac who will call any 2 and the nit who isnt creative enough to 3-bet a worse hand so I can easily fold to a 3-bet. Not sure about the nit tho, he might have Qx too often here.


EDIT: Raising the nit is silly. He isnt calling with worse hands often enough.


I am also not sure about the LAGTAG. I will likely end up just calling as I would hate being 3-bet.

The passive guy I'd call against as well, but it might be a raise/fold vs him as well.

I cant see why you would ever fold here. The only guy where it should be considered is the nit

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

I change my answer to #3 to agree with oink

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]

#1
You are in the BB with T9s and are raised by the SB.
Who would you be most inclined to re-raise and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

The weak tight nit because you will be able to get him to fold the best hand postflop a lot. And by best hand I mean K, Q, J high and sometimes A high depending on the board.

[ QUOTE ]
#2
Assume you just call:

Flop is QJ4 with a flush draw
SB bets, you raise, SB calls

Turn is a J
Sb checks, you bet, SB calls

River is a 4 (flush draw not completed)
SB checks..

Out of the players in question 1, who do you have the most profitable bet against? Second most? What are all the players likely ranges right now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most profitable bet:
1. The nit (range is probably AK, KT, small pairs. KT will fold, AK and small pairs a small part of the time)
2. Semi-passive (range is probably a ton of gutshots, A high, flush draws, small pairs. Gutshots and nonnut flush draws will fold.)
3. LAGTAG (range is pretty much A high and small pairs. I can't think of a hand a good LAGTAG would play this way that folds the river except possibly KT and T9, which may 3bet the flop.)
4. Maniac (range is like basically any two cards. He's probably calling even busted draws. If he folds you had the best hand.)

[ QUOTE ]
#3
Assume the same situation as the last hand
But the river is a Q

All of a sudden SB unsuspectedly bets...

Who are you ahead of the most right now? Who has you beat the most right now? Who should you be most inclined to raise against?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are ahead of the semi passive player most. This is the type of player who will donk bluff frequently, and this is usually a card they will do it on.

LAGTAG has you beat the most here. He is probably value betting A high now that small pairs were counterfeited. He will probably call if you raise here with A high.

I think you should most inclined to raise vs. the semipassive, hoping to fold K high. Though I'm not sure I would raise any of these players here.

[ QUOTE ]
#4
Assume river is a Q but your hand is now J5s

Which player profiles should you raise against? Which should you call? Which should you fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not folding vs. anyone. I would be most inclined to raise vs. the LAGTAG and maniac. I would just call the nit and semi passive.

Well, let's see how badly I did...

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

#1- I wouldn't re-raise any player with this hand.
Player A seems like a logical choice as he will play fit or fold postflop, however he is going to have a far superior hand preflop.
Player B will peel every flop many of which we will miss.
Leaving us in unknown territory on the big streets.
Player C will playback too often and we have no SD value
Player D will read boards too well and also playback too often. Forcing us to fold in a bloated pot.

#2- Player D. He is most likely drawing along with us and may not make the K high call.
Ranges:
Player A- 55+, AT+, KT+, QT+, JT
Player B- Same as Player A
Player C- By description range is huge almost any two
Player D- 22-TT, AK, KT, T9

#3- Players C we are ahead of the most. Players A&B have us crushed. Raise against Player D and his busted draw.

#4- Raise against C as D is never calling unless we're beat. Call against A&D. Against Player B grab the tissues.

Now I get to see how bad I really am.

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

1. I'd 3-bet all but the nit. You have 0 edge against a guy who doesn't have K5o in his range here. Against the fish, its close, but I like giving fish action in close spots for metagame reasons.

2. I check behind a lot more than most here. I'd bet only vs. the fish and the nit. Lagtags don't usually fold kt here vs. me--dunno about 27/18 types though.

3. The only people you can beat here are the fish and the maniac. You should def not raise the maniac since he can bluff 3-bet. I think I'd call here. Against the fish you probably have a profitable raise. At first I didn't know wtf to do vs. a lagtag. But then I decided if he's really good he probably expects us to bluff-raise a ton so he can probably beat a bluff-raise. Guess that means folding>calling>raising.

4. I'd raise the maniac for sure. The rest are just easy calls, though its interesting vs. the fish or the lagtag.

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

1) The weak tight nit, reason is fold equity

2) The weak tight, although I'd expect even him to calldown with ace high once he got here, maybe he folds KT. Second most probably the LAGTAG, although he might calldown with K high, the other 2 will certainly.

3) We're most likely ahead of the super lagtard, against the others all we really beat is a worst flush draw or 4x where x < 10. The lagtard will probably spitecall alot so I don't think it's worth bluff raising him. I'm really confused on this bet from the TAGs, if they have K or A high how can they think they're bluffing? Also seems too thin of a value bet. I think we're only folding out worse or chopping hands from the TAGs, but seems pretty unlikely they have any made hand so it might be worth it. The 50/15 is more likely to be screwing around bluffing with a hand that has showdown value, but these types often bluff and call a raise so it might not be worth it.

4) Can't imagine them playing a Q this weak, although the TAGs could've been going for a turn check/raise and got scared on that card. Also the TAGs can't really payoff with a worse hand, so I guess a call might be best against the TAGs. Against the fish I'd raise.

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

Very interesting to see such radical different answers...

unfortunatly therse some different assumptions about the player types.. but tehres also some fundamental differences in the way people are approaching it.

Post my thoguhts/answers in a couple days..
There WAS something I hadnt thought of which made one of the answers a lot closer than I thought...
Ill discuss it at the end.

You may not all agree with my answers, but you may learn something...

Therse only one person who has very similar responses to mine in general lol

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

Ok looks like the post is falling down so Ill just post the answers now (its closer than I originally thought so dont be offended if its different than yours [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

#1
You should not re-raise the maniac or the passive fish period. The maniac will very likely be putting in just as much agression post flop despite the size of the pot.
The correct strategy for your holding in a larger pot is to be more agressive with your draws.. which the maniacs natural style counters hard.
Your value against him comes from when you hit your pairs/straight/flushs and he spews at you.. Most of the time youll have to fold postflop, so you dont want to build a big pot.
You have very little fold equity.

The fish will very likely call the scariest boards on the flop as well as peel the turn very light. They arent folding a pair no matter how scary the baord. His range is also a fair bit tighter.

I would certaintly re-raise the LAGTAG, but its close. They know you will be re-raising with a wide range and wont settle down postflop. However their PF range is often so wide that you must be ramming on them back when you have good playable hands.

The semi-nit is the best target to reraise because, they will still be raising preflop with a wideish range since its SB vs BB (not as wide as the LAGTAG) but are much more likely to fold and play passive to your raise postflop. However other people brought up a good point. There is certainly value in just calling and raising most flops as well..

Conclusion: T9s is a great resteal hand if you have fold equity. Semi- Nits with a wider than their comfort zone PF range (SB vs BB) are perfect targets. The key idea that many people missed is that Nits can still play poker, and adjust positionally. They are likely raising a fairly wide range in the SB, and have plenty of hands that wont hit flops or have showdown value.
Just dont mess around with their UTG/HJ range.

#2

This was the key question that initially inspird me to post this thread because I figured a lot of people would get it wrong... I was right.

The answer to this question is IMO not very debateable.

B wins by a landslide, with A coming in second, C and D are close to equally terrible

This may surprise some of you since its easy to think generally "WTF we're most inclined the bluff the passive calling station?"
The key to this question comes with how the player profiles play the previous streets.

It is extremly likely the LAGTAG would have reraised you with any open ended straight draw or flush draw (especially on that turn) so his range rarely compose of those hands.
His range is very very likely ace high, the occasionaly gutshot, small pairs, or a 4 planning to check/raise the river.

However, the passiver player on the other hand, while may have been more passive with his made hands, is also much less likely to re-raise his draws. There are TONS of missed draws here. Note I also gave the passiver fish a decent PFR% so his hand can include many cards like KT, K9 etc that are planning to fold the river.

A key hand reading tool to extract from this:
When a very agressive player is playing passivly when he has no reason to expect great strength from you, he very likely has a weak made hand.

#3
I think this one is the "debateable" question and depends a lot on subtle tendencies and assumptions. So, I will state my assumptions and explain why I made my assumptions.


Ahead of the most?: The Nit
Who has you beat the most?: The passive player or LAGTAG
Who should be most inclined to raise?: The passive player


Assumptions about Nit:
1) Not sneaky/tricky enough to be betting ace high here
2) Would have likely reraised a Q earlier (unless waiting for the turn and got scared, which is one thing I didnt consider). Would also possibly check/raise a Q on this river. A Q is in his range though.
3) Would likely bluff a busted pair trying to fold out worse draws.
4) Is not likely to bluff a hand like K9 because it folds out no better hands... More likely to c/c with it.

The key debateable assumption is #3. I could certaintly see a semi-nit taking a stab , trying to fold out busted draws as a desperation shot, thinking you are incapable of calling like KT.

I think the passive player has you beat the most because from my experiences passive players LOVE to bluff when boards pair to rep that card. They have TONS of draws in their range right now and most of them beat yours. They would also very likely play any Q besides AQ/KQ like this too.

I also think you have a slightly profitable raise bluff against them because all of those better draws that they are "bluffing with" they will now likely fold (possible exception of ace high).

Maniac is too likely to rebluff you... Horrible to raise.

I think raising the LAGTAG is bad because:
1) There werent many busted draws in his range in the first place
2) If he has a low countefit pair your ahead of it anyways
3) He could easily be betting ace high FOR VALUE PLANNING TO CALL A RAISE

Yes betting ace high for value. I would certainly do it in his shoes and I think its the correct play.

He would likely put your range as Jx, Qx, draws, 4x

He would assume you probabily wont raise a J since hes trying to rep the Q. So he loses the same as c/c.
He would likely also bet his busted low pairs so he could easily see you calling with a lot of your K hi draws to snap off a bluff, that may check behind.

He could also see you raising your counterfit hands/bad draws to try and fold out his busted pairs.

Betting Ax, busted pairs and sometimes Qx is a great way to have a strong distribution in the LAGTAGS spot.
If you count combinations, more often than not, hero will have a busted draw with showdown value! than Qx.

Maniac = Call
Nit = Call (or fold if you take out the busted pairs assumption)
LAGTAG = Call
Passive = Raise or Fold

#4

Ive discussed what I think the players hand ranges likely are in #3.. From that its pretty clear what to do with Jx.


LAGTAG = Raise and grit your teeth as you call the 3-bet
Maniac = EASY EASY raise and laugh while u call the 3-bet
Nit = Call
Passive = Call


I think VMAcosta had the closest to my thinking?

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

cool post
good point about the LAGTAG's range being mostly weak showdownable hands

Re: Heisenb3rgs Blind Defense Quiz
 

I'm (more or less) with you on everything but pf. I'm hoping pf doesn't matter too much. In general I like to give bad players a bunch of action in close spots because I feel like it makes them wanna come after me and that's fine by me since I play pretty abc on the big streets and never fold anyway. It also keeps them playing when they might otherwise quit for the night.

I don't like to give nits too much action cuz I prefer to just take their blinds and move on. I think I probably lose a ton of money to nits postflop--perhaps moreso than good lagtags. My inability to fold is likely the reason.