top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

guys 17/13/7 over 200 hands (AF probably isnt too accurate - small sample size)


Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

US (SB): $755.40
BB: $937.70
UTG: $646.50
MP: $400.00
CO: $1,203.45
BTN: $251.00

Preflop: US is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $14.00</font>, 3 folds, US calls $12.00, BB folds

Flop: ($32) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
US checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $20.00</font>, US calls $20.00

Turn: ($72) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
US checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $56.00</font>, <font color="red">US raises to $155.00</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $384.00</font>, <font color="red">US raises all-in to $721.40</font>, UTG calls all-in for $228.50
Uncalled bet of $108.90 returned to US

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

Looks ok, if you're not comfortable with the line because you really can't see what you beat, then c/c turn and bet river or something.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

yeah, just wondering about a turn lead aswell

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

way to stack off to JJ.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
way to stack off to JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

i appreciate people replying to my posts. Although this isn't very helpfull (no offence) what would you do?

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

I would fold pf because out of position and AQ is probably less than 50/50 vs his utg range.

Post flop looks OK to me.

Donking the turn and playing for stacks is not a bad idea.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

I have a bad feeling that we're [censored] here once he 3bets the turn, but I'd play it the same and chalk losing up to variance.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

When he didn't even care about your c/raise you should definitely just fold unless you want to see a set.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

I strongly prefer a preflop fold in this spot. Against a nit's UTG range, AQ doesn't play much better than any two random cards. I mean you can't be happy if an ace flops and you get any action, and similarly for if a queen flops. And as this hand shows you can't even be happy if an ace AND a queen come down and you're getting action. 150BB just means the decisions are going to be even tougher.

Basically against a nit you're usually going to end up winning/losing a small pot or having to make incredibly difficult and tough decisions like this one.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

go into c/c mode. if hes nitty 150 bbs deep this is the absolute bottom of his stack off range. and its close. also when he 3bets the turn u can prob fold.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

You need to be super aggressive---and he needs to know it---to raise this turn profitably I think. He will likely let go of AK without any trouble.

3-bet preflop?

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
go into c/c mode. if hes nitty 150 bbs deep this is the absolute bottom of his stack off range. and its close. also when he 3bets the turn u can prob fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have a feeling that's losing value. (the c/c part)

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

I think you should fold the turn as played.....what are you hoping to see here?

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should fold the turn as played.....what are you hoping to see here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess praying to see an overplayed AJ? literally the only thing i can see. the more i look at it, the turn actually seems like an easy fold (but definitely not easy to make in the situation yourself, in real time).

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

I like leading the turn. Him checking behind would be really terrible on this board and we hardly get more value out of a lot of hands by c/raising anyway. If he raises we can call and see a river (sometimes hitting a 4-outer), then make a decision.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

this is standard and folding the turn is terrible without a more meaningful read than "17/13"

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is standard and folding the turn is terrible without a more meaningful read than "17/13"

[/ QUOTE ]

it isn't

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

Sounds like there is an OK but not great read on villian. Plenty of 17/13 types never even show up with AJ, let alone something like AK or a draw, so you are looking at AA,JJ just about every single time. On the other hand, you only have 200 hands so it's really hard to get away from this. (I'd just lead the turn tbh, but whatever you do you won't get a showdown by the looks of it without sticking them all in.)

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is standard and folding the turn is terrible without a more meaningful read than "17/13"

[/ QUOTE ]

please tell what you're expecting to see after he 3bets turn? to say folding the turn here is "terrible" is ridiculous. i guess you must just get "coolered" a lot? seriously, tell me what the hell he has

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

I think its 44, JJ, KT too many times, i would fold this :/

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think its 44, JJ, KT too many times, i would fold this :/

[/ QUOTE ]

dont think this is ever K10

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[quote

dont think this is ever K10

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

If one is looking for reasons to fold this hand post flop when hitting two pair vs an ultra aggressive player, then the biggest misstake imo is to call preflop.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

is a 17/13 even raising KT UTG to begin with?

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
is a 17/13 even raising KT UTG to begin with?

[/ QUOTE ]

It happens...

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
is a 17/13 even raising KT UTG to begin with?

[/ QUOTE ]
No

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is a 17/13 even raising KT UTG to begin with?

[/ QUOTE ]
No

[/ QUOTE ]

that was my reasoning

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is a 17/13 even raising KT UTG to begin with?

[/ QUOTE ]
No

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw a 14/6 (60 hands) raise Q9s UTG yesterday....

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
If one is looking for reasons to fold this hand post flop when hitting two pair vs an ultra aggressive player, then the biggest misstake imo is to call preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong, the 2 events aren't related

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is a 17/13 even raising KT UTG to begin with?

[/ QUOTE ]
No

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw a 14/6 (60 hands) raise Q9s UTG yesterday....

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously it happens sometimes, but tight players don't auto-raise even KQ if UTG.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If one is looking for reasons to fold this hand post flop when hitting two pair vs an ultra aggressive player, then the biggest misstake imo is to call preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong, the 2 events aren't related

[/ QUOTE ]

How come? Why do you call this preflop then?

If I were to call this preflop I would have a reason for it. The reason is almost always an opportunity to make money, an investment, a +ev situation. Obviously you don't like your hand very much even though you hit the board as good as you could've ever hoped for, so how can the "2 events" be unrelated?

Edit: typo, haven't had my morning coffee yet [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

i think that you only beat a semibluff with AK(king of diamonds) and an overplayed aj and lose to everything else. And, people act like there's no flush at all but you'd be suprised how often a no-auto-pilot nittish 17 shows t 9 of diamonds here. Unless it's someone who falls in love with his preflop a k, it's a "tough" fold to the turn raise. It's tempting to call though, since you have too many outs but you should fold to a big river bet if your hand doesn't improve.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

When you raise the turn, you have to call the shove after.

If you don't want to play for stacks, you must b/fold (very very weak) or c/c this turn.

I don't think a 17/13 will 3 bets this turn with AJ or AK diamond 150BB deep.
Commited by your c/r, I think lead out the turn is better.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

I think we all can agree check/raising the turn is bad unless you're planning to stack off. Check/calling both turn and river is fine imo.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

i disagree with that nick. 2 things can happen when i cr the turn and my opponents ranges are very different. Either he calls (i'm probably ahead) or he raises (i'm probably behind - although that seems debatable from responses in this thread), but raising could still good to get value out of my big hand. (I suck at explaining stuff - i'll try to elaborate if you don't get me)


as with c/c i really think that loses value, alot of the times hes betting the turn and checking the river on this board imo.


I quite like leading turn thinking about it, and calling a raise (i think someone suggested that earlier), it'll charge his draws (which could well check behind), and 2pr/good pr hands that might not call a cr. Disadvantage is that I could be faced with a tough river spot.

imo, it's either cr (and maybe fold to a raise, im thinking that's correct even though alot of people think stacking off here is fine), or b/c.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you raise the turn, you have to call the shove after.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't necessarily agree this is true. just because we made what may likely be one mistake in the hand (c/r-ing the turn against this player) doesn't mean we have to compound it with what might be another mistake (getting all-in once he's shown us that we're crushed by his range). we're praying for him to have approximately one hand. sometimes you'll make a mistake in the hand, realize that midway, but you can still get away from it without compounding it with another one.

i think people feel often like they kind of have to stick with a line, even if it was flawed to begin with, for the hope that this time he'll have the overplayed AJ and we can ultimately feel like we played it "perfectly". problem is when that doesn't work out, your one mistake turned into two

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
i disagree with that nick. 2 things can happen when i cr the turn and my opponents ranges are very different. Either he calls (i'm probably ahead) or he raises (i'm probably behind - although that seems debatable from responses in this thread), but raising could still good to get value out of my big hand. (I suck at explaining stuff - i'll try to elaborate if you don't get me)




[/ QUOTE ]
Thing is a guy with a 7 af doesn't call a lot at all. I'm not sure exactly what it means, but his call vs bet/raise frequency is really low. I don't think it's correct to check/raise this kind of player for value and folding to a push often at all. If he's planning to stack off with QJ/AJ or whatever this is the kind of player doing it by getting all $$$ in by just pushing the turn, since it's not an overbet. So raising the turn and folding to a push is bad imo because 1) it's unlikely to get called down by worse and 2) we might fold the best hand.

I realise what you're saying and I don't think raising for value and folding to a push in this situation is bad per se, but vs this opponent I think it is. Sure, sample size is pretty small for judging af, but enough to raise doubts.


[ QUOTE ]
as with c/c i really think that loses value, alot of the times hes betting the turn and checking the river on this board imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now if we check and call the turn he'll still be betting a lot of hands, and on the river he'll probably v-bet about the same range as he'll call a bet with, plus he'll bluff some missed draws.


[ QUOTE ]
I quite like leading turn thinking about it, and calling a raise (i think someone suggested that earlier), it'll charge his draws (which could well check behind), and 2pr/good pr hands that might not call a cr. Disadvantage is that I could be faced with a tough river spot.

imo, it's either cr (and maybe fold to a raise, im thinking that's correct even though alot of people think stacking off here is fine), or b/c.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'd rather bet/call than c/r. This way he can't check for pot control with AK/AT or take a freecard with a fd. I actually think betting the turn probably is best.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

yeah you make a fair point about c/c, just figured alot of nits don't vb too thinnly and call a little too much with their top pair hands, but i guess that isn't the case here (although not enough to make c/c bad anyway), although kinda sucks to get this board checked through. Which is why I'm thinking more money should be going in on the turn. gah this hand is getting to me! all the lines have pros and cons.


i still think 200 is too small to judge af by.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

i just dont think theres enough times were ahead when the turn action goes like this. also, hes fairly tight postflop and we have the Q of diamonds. what flush draws is the nit raising utg when the q and a are gone? this is almost never a semi bluff, maybe its like an overplayed ak or something but if hes competent postflop then youre kinda screwed. also LOL at people's logic that we have 2 pairs autostack off on turn for 150 bbs. that's so wrong and terrible.

Re: top 2 150 deep against nittish player
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If one is looking for reasons to fold this hand post flop when hitting two pair vs an ultra aggressive player, then the biggest misstake imo is to call preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong, the 2 events aren't related

[/ QUOTE ]

How come? Why do you call this preflop then?

If I were to call this preflop I would have a reason for it. The reason is almost always an opportunity to make money, an investment, a +ev situation. Obviously you don't like your hand very much even though you hit the board as good as you could've ever hoped for, so how can the "2 events" be unrelated?

Edit: typo, haven't had my morning coffee yet [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]



different situations, different ranges. AQo is strong enough to play agains his range from this position imo. but it doesn't mean i have to go all the way with 2pr, because this guy might not be willing to felt worse. I can still play it profitably though, he won't always be playing for stacks if i flop 2pr or a pair, if you see what i mean.