(razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

I've always been curious about loose players (40% vpip and above) who have very low raising percentages on 3rd (less than 8%), but reasonable-to-high raising percentages after 4th. Basically, what hands are they raising on 3rd?

As it turns out, I think a remarkable percentage of the time they are raising garbage, in steal position, although sometimes in early position into a lot of low cards. I need to do some data mining but I took one for the team and started calling a few of these guys down to check it out.

I'm playing on Full Tilt so cards get shuffled, but I saw a LOT of cases where the hands were either like J34 or 434.

Just a thought.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

Well, Rusty, you seem to have stumbled on the "big secret" that no one talks about here.

Good (really good) razz players do not have a VPIP of 21%. They enter a lot of pots with little cards showing from all kinds of positions into all kinds of boards. If they don't catch, they slip away. If they do, they get aggressive. Razz, (as we were arguing about earlier) is not about showdown, it's about appearance.

I also read that this strategy only works against low limit or high limit players and isn't effective against mid-limit players. That would be borne out by SG who says no one believes you at 3/6.

I noticed you at a table last night (1/2) with a guy who also plays at 10/20. They aren't LAGs, they are just good. Reraise them on 3rd a few times when you ID them and they should avoid you unless they have a hand, was the advice I read.

Be careful out there.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]

Good (really good) razz players do not have a VPIP of 21%. They enter a lot of pots with little cards showing from all kinds of positions into all kinds of boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. I think 21% is too tight but not by far. Maybe 23-24 is about right.

Anyway, I'm talking about fish here (and I'm sorry but show me a long term winner with 40%+ vpip and we'll talk)

Last night was pretty sick. I finally gave up when I lost a hand when I got all in on 5th with a 90% favorite and lost to runner-runner. (The only reason I was able to get all in (I had about 8bb in front of me) was that I was about to leave after taking a few beatings but didn't sit out quick enough before I was dealt a hand)

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I'm talking about fish here (and I'm sorry but show me a long term winner with 40%+ vpip and we'll talk)


[/ QUOTE ]

So, I was keeping this thread in mind and while I'm not going to track a player for three months, I do have a few players for you. Two are at too high stakes for me to sit with, the last one plays 1/2 at PStars pretty regularly.

The 1/2 player ranges between 37-42% VPIP in the games I have and makes about $10 an hour. If you play over there, and you want to PM me, I'll send you his name. I've rarely seen him lose, but I only have actual stats since I've gotten PT.

Then there are the maniacs -

"Z" has a VPIP of 48% - his variance is huge, he is ultra-aggressive and right now over the sessions I tracked him he is making $45 an hour playing 5/10.

"H" is insane. His VPIP is always around 60%. He doesn't do as well as Z, he only makes about $10 an hour at 3/6.

Of course, I can't "prove" that these players win over the course of a year. I'm certainly not going to start playing this way, myself. But I have played with the 1/2 player for a few months and I know he's a winning player. Many good players that earn a living grinding out Razz (or any game) are playing a lot of junk in the hole. At least, more than we'd think. Other good players are not playing as much junk.

Everyone develops their own style and I'm sure you have a lot of fish with 40% VPIP. But some of them aren't fish. They are playing percentages and our imaginations, not their cards.

This is a quote from Ted Forrest who some consider to be one of the best Razz players anywhere:

"If you are a fundamentally sound player, you will be at a disadvantage to players who really understand Razz.... "

I think his "fundamentally sound player" (which is what I'm striving to learn right now) will in the end do OK at low limits when they are playing others like themselves. And I think we can get into the money in tournaments. But being at the top, in the real high stakes, that's gonna take something else.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]

The 1/2 player ranges between 37-42% VPIP in the games I have and makes about $10 an hour. If you play over there, and you want to PM me, I'll send you his name. I've rarely seen him lose, but I only have actual stats since I've gotten PT.

Then there are the maniacs -

"Z" has a VPIP of 48% - his variance is huge, he is ultra-aggressive and right now over the sessions I tracked him he is making $45 an hour playing 5/10.

"H" is insane. His VPIP is always around 60%. He doesn't do as well as Z, he only makes about $10 an hour at 3/6.


[/ QUOTE ]

How many hands on each of these?

For players that I have 5000 or more hands on, which is quite a few, there is only 1 winning player with a vpip above 40%, and I doubt it will last. The higher the stakes go the easier it is to be a winner or small loser with a high vpip because you pay less in rake. At pokerstars, I understand the ante to be 1/2 that of FTPs, which makes playing loose even worse, I'd think. I don't play there or track people there though.

Oh - and I am talking full ring here - I don't consider stats for players unless there are at least 5 people in a hand (I do import them but I filter them out when looking at vpip, win rate, etc)

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

Are you guys getting this many hands from play or datamining?

-ChipsAhoya

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you guys getting this many hands from play or datamining?

[/ QUOTE ]

I work from home and have a very flexible schedule, so I have all the tables at the stakes I play open most of the time (a whopping 5-6 tables usually). I check periodically to see if tables look good and if they do I sit in for a bit. I also usually play a few regular hours in the evening. I depend on my notes more than stats but it is nice to know, when you sit down, right away who is loose, who is tight, who is a maniac. Makes choosing a seat easier also. I'm not good enough to win against decent players so mostly I try to choose good games.

(So far I've been playing about 15k hands/mo)

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
At pokerstars, I understand the ante to be 1/2 that of FTPs, which makes playing loose even worse, I'd think. I don't play there or track people there though.

[/ QUOTE ] It's definitely different from FT. The .50/1 game on Stars has a .05 ante and a .25 bring-in. I don't know why anyone plays loose there because it's very cheap to see a lot of hands.

The best thing about Stars is the tourneys that give you a lot more play time. Especially with Razz, gives you time to build a stack.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

i can catagorically say both ways work. i've had months where my VP$IP is in the high 30s to low 40s and won. also had a couple of months where my rate was comparable and was playing at around 25% VP%IP.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a quote from Ted Forrest who some consider to be one of the best Razz players anywhere:

"If you are a fundamentally sound player, you will be at a disadvantage to players who really understand Razz.... "

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, could you tell me where this quote comes from ? I googled it, and the only results are directed to your post.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a quote from Ted Forrest who some consider to be one of the best Razz players anywhere:

"If you are a fundamentally sound player, you will be at a disadvantage to players who really understand Razz.... "

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, could you tell me where this quote comes from ? I googled it, and the only results are directed to your post.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's from the razz chapter in the Full Tilt strategy guide book. While I don't agree with everything Ted says in there about razz, this quote is spot on.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a quote from Ted Forrest who some consider to be one of the best Razz players anywhere:

"If you are a fundamentally sound player, you will be at a disadvantage to players who really understand Razz.... "

[/ QUOTE ]Just out of curiosity, could you tell me where this quote comes from ? I googled it, and the only results are directed to your post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure - it's from the Full Tilt Strategy Guide Tournament Edition. I don't have a page number, just a lot of notes, but it's the very last thing in that chapter.

The Razz section is about 4 pages (OK maybe 8) but it's an interview type deal with Huck Seed and Ted Forrest. It's short but dense, it really helped my game. I think it said they both have two Razz bracelets a piece.

I also love the last part of what he said:

"Anybody playing basic strategy is going to get crushed by a good poker player. Razz is one of the purest forms of poker because the good players will make the money and the bad players will lose the money. It's a beautiful, beautiful form of poker."

Take that, Norman Chad!


(edited to add: Uh-oh! Shoulda read ahead!)

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
i can catagorically say both ways work. i've had months where my VP$IP is in the high 30s to low 40s and won. also had a couple of months where my rate was comparable and was playing at around 25% VP%IP.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I just had a session where my VPIP was 11% and I lost every hand I played! (Well, Rusty, that's the end of my 60-80% showdown win run!)

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I think the hardest thing about poker is not giving it up. But the worst thing would be to give up poker.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I just had a session where my VPIP was 11% and I lost every hand I played! (Well, Rusty, that's the end of my 60-80% showdown win run!)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not a huge fan of VPIP %ages ruling your game in razz, but judging on a session by session basis is even worse.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I just had a session where my VPIP was 11% and I lost every hand I played! (Well, Rusty, that's the end of my 60-80% showdown win run!)

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not a huge fan of VPIP %ages ruling your game in razz, but judging on a session by session basis is even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

And it kind of emphasizes the point - if a few sessions change any stat significantly, you didn't have enough data points to trust the statistic.

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

These are my numbers from the wcoop razz tourny (that I won). Dont know if these help you, but here they are. These numbers are considerablly tighter then my cash game stats, which of course is because I played 8 sided the whole tourny as opposed to cash games where I average only about 4 opponents per table.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9733/razz1rl5.th.png

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

and last 2 months of cash games:
(99% are not heads up as I cant stand playing HU razz) [image]http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8525/razz2qv5.png[/image]

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
These are my numbers from the wcoop razz tourny (that I won). Dont know if these help you, but here they are. These numbers are considerablly tighter then my cash game stats, which of course is because I played 8 sided the whole tourny as opposed to cash games where I average only about 4 opponents per table.

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9733/razz1rl5.th.png

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey ragz, congrats. Any observations for the 2p2 studders about this tourney? From your stats, it seems prax has been taking lessons from you on how to win 90% of his showdowns (at least from your last 3 levels)

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

[ QUOTE ]
These are my numbers from the wcoop razz tourny (that I won). Dont know if these help you, but here they are. These numbers are considerablly tighter then my cash game stats, which of course is because I played 8 sided the whole tourny as opposed to cash games where I average only about 4 opponents per table.

[/ QUOTE ]

RAGZMASTER! My Hero! (prax begins syncophantically chanting "I'm not worthy!" with zenlike intensity)

I was around for most of it (long hours defeated my resolve to watch final table) and as you know - you rock. Congrats on the great win. I know there was a deal, but I don't think anyone was in doubt.

It was really generous of you to post these stats - Esp your cash game ones. tx

Stick around a couple years....I'm comin' for ya! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

prax <--indulging in fantasy at the moment

Re: (razz) An observation about low limit razz
 

Thanks guys.

I don't really have anything groundbreaking to say about the tourny, it played pretty much how I thought it would, although I was hoping to do good , I was very surprised to win.

Now the Stud Hi/Lo tourny last night, that's a whole other story. I was shocked to get 11th, seeing as I played my very first hand of it ever in my life yesteday morning for about 20 minutes, losing about 40 cents at the 10c/20c table.