I never know how to handle these
 

stars 2/4

PokerStars 2/4 Omaha/8 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls $6 (All-In), MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Call, raise or fold river?

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Fold pf.

Call river and expect to get 3/4ed.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Call the river. You will be quartered so a raise earns you nothing.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Raise, if it's a loose table.

The hand looks like typical loose-passive table to me.
Loose passive players often delay their raises with the Nuts 1 card. They fear the flush, and they'll draw to non-nut Lo's.

The reasoning that this field is loose players pre-flop, and play A4 in bad spots, but then you cannot give so much credence to turn calls and river calls for 1 bet, where the pot has got large.

If they're tight players, then you can give credence to the calls, but then you're saying they been dealt A45x, 2345 etc.

SB may have 45, A58, A5K6 etc etc as well as A54 which you fear, and other hands to.
The BB should have the nut str8, if has then raising the SB is a great play with any kind of a Lo.
The short-stack overcaller and the mid-pos overcaller, can be making crying calls.

When you get quartered, with your raise called by only 2 players or 4 bet, and called,you loose fractions of bets, especially as someone has to have precisely A54x to have a lock.

When you take 1/2 the pot, you win at least a bet raising.

You've got a better than usual chance of the MP overcaller, calling the final bet to, due to the large pot size.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Preflop call is a little loose but with that many already in and the button I thought it was ok. I would normally fold pre if not for those reasons.

How many lows do there have to be for a raise to be bad play? I think we can assume at least one nut straight so we are only playing for half.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Raise river, you're near end of action, so you won't risk losing overcalls. You have 5 in pot, 1 is All in, so you still have 4; thus you're +EV. You will split and break even a small precentage, win a large precentage, and get sixthed or octed a tiny itty bitty fraction of the time.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

What's wrong with raising the turn to see if we can't get a bet or two out of someone holding A5?

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call, raise or fold river?

[/ QUOTE ]CJS - Seems close to me between calling and raising on the river.

I think you missed a raise on the turn.

Buzz

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

I think this hand is too junky to play a multiway pot preflop. If the A is suited or make the 9 a J and things change some.

I agree with Buzz, take a chance at raising the turn. Someone may have called with their non-nut lows hoping to show them down cheap.

The river seems to depend on reads a fair amount. The nuts both ways require a 4, and there are only 4 fours and 5 players in, so someone almost certainly has to be getting nothing.

I think this is somewhat a judgement call, but I would probably just call as it seems to me that BB probably has the nuts (probably high) and UTG and MP3 also probably have the nuts to cold call (UTG is still calling 1.5 BB, both probably have A4 but if one has 54 you are looking good). That leaves SB most likely to have nothing and I wouldn't want to drive him out. If you have a read that he will call 2 more BB with a likely cap coming with A5, then by all means raise. Also, if MP3 could cold call 2 BB with less than the nuts then raise.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Buzz, if the turn is raise why wouldn't the river be a clear raise? My low, or the number of other lows, hasn't changed from the turn to river.

I guess the crux of my question is how hard do you play a one way nut hand against multiable opponents when you could be quartered or worse?

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz, if the turn is raise why wouldn't the river be a clear raise? My low, or the number of other lows, hasn't changed from the turn to river.

I guess the crux of my question is how hard do you play a one way nut hand against multiable opponents when you could be quartered or worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the answer is because their hands are better defined on the river. There 2 flush draws and FH draws and other things people could be drawing at on the turn, but once SB bets, BB raises, and UTG and MP3 both call 2, on the river, they aren't drawing any more, they have hands. A big part of the value of the raise on the turn is to charge people drawing at naked high draws.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

....or drive out others holding worse lows or A4 who are fearful of being quartered.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Cooker, the hand is definitely worth playing. A4xx rainbow on the button is playable because of position. In this case, it has excellent value with 4 already in the pot.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz, if the turn is raise why wouldn't the river be a clear raise?

[/ QUOTE ]CJS - Good question.

It's not clear after the turn what these guys are drawing for. Could be diamonds or spades, or maybe not. Could be someone is chasing with a non-nut low. Whatever, since they've all put in one bet, they're all probably going to call a raise. (A drawback to raising on the turn is a heavy handed SB might make it a three bets with a six straight or an A-4-X-Y low, which might have the sad effect of eliminating chasers, but I'd take that risk).

By raising on the turn, you set up for a possible conversion of a low only hand to a scooper on the river. If the river card doesn't fit well with anyone's hand, they all probably check to you, and if you have a reasonably solid image, your river bet may take the whole pot.

Raising on the river without the raise on the turn won't scoop the pot for you, especially since SB has bet, BB has raised(!), UTG is all-in (!!), and MP has just called a double bet (!!!).

After the turn it was not as clear that everyone liked their hand this well! But yikes, when the action gets to you on the river, it looks a lot like someone else may also have the nut low! Possibly two or three of your opponents also have the nut low! That was not nearly as evident from the information available to you after the turn.

There's enough in the pot so that I don't think you want to fold on the river, but one can make a very strong case for calling.

Buzz

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

results if anyone is interested.



UTG has Kc Ts 8c Ac (Low: 7, 6, 3, 2, A | High: one pair, kings).
MP3 has 7c 5s 8h 4h (Low: 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 | High: straight, seven high).
Hero has 9c 4c Qd As (Low: 6, 4, 3, 2, A | High: high card, ace).
SB has Jh 4d 9d 5d (Low: 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 | High: straight, seven high).
BB has 5c 9s 3c 4s (Low: 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 | High: straight, seven high).
Outcome: Hero wins 9 BB. MP3 wins 3 BB. SB wins 3 BB. BB wins 3 BB. </font>

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Wow, you all play some pretty terrible hands.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

I take back what I said about the others at your table perhaps afraid of being quartered. The AFC crowd you were running with here seems to fear money most of all.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cooker, the hand is definitely worth playing. A4xx rainbow on the button is playable because of position. In this case, it has excellent value with 4 already in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a multiway pot, position means much less than in a SH pot, because you are likely to have to show down the best hand. I don't think A4 rainbow makes the best hand often enough to justify the preflop call. I don't think it is terrible to limp here, but I think it is marginal and probably a fold. I would probably play it in PL where the rewards for a big flop can just. I haven't been playing lately, so I might be somewhat off my game, but I will usually fold this with that action.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

CJS - So as it turns out, the three highs got sixthed and you alone had the nut low. That happens a lot when there is raising on the river with boards like this. And since that was the case, you would have done a bit better by raising on the river yourself.

But it just as easily could have gone the other way, with three low hands splitting. And if that had been the case, and if two opponents folded because of the raising, you would have done a bit worse by raising.

In truth, because of the river raising, it looks more like nut high staights (54XY hands) will be splitting than lows, but since I don't know how your opponents play, it was hard for me to say. Seemed (and seems) a close decision to me.

But I'm still 100% for raising on the turn. Wouldn't have worked here, but another time it might. You need to scoop more than average to consistently do much better than average in a high/low split game, and you help yourself in this regard by somehow promoting low only hands to scoopers.

And in cases like this, you have an opportunity to possibly set up the scoop by raising on the turn.

Buzz

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

The 1/6 th carve up is rare.
More often you'ld get 1/4'red and have 5 callers or 4, and not lose anything.
Some of the time, you take 1/2 the pot and your raise looks like genius.

A side effect of "being dumb enough to raise the Nut Lo" is you may put your weak-tight opponents on tilt, when they've had an "seemingly uncessary" loss on the river in a hand.

As the question didn't define the types of players, it was hard to glean what hands they likely had, partly because you failed to raise the turn.

Raising the turn there as Buzz suggests, is superior, because you won't get money from the draws that miss on the river. As you only lose money if 3 players have A4 with you, and whilst you can be counterfeited it's less likely when you're going to 1/4 the pot, it's not nearly as risky as it might feel.

If you thought raising the river was wrong, then you really should raise the turn, when it's a family pot, and gain info from the responses.

But some players 3 &amp; 4 bet the turn ignoring the obvious 1/4, when you overcall, and that's not good play either. So when you raise see who's calling you, are they Fish or solid players?

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Hi Rob - Good points in your post!

[ QUOTE ]
The 1/6 th carve up is rare.

[/ QUOTE ]"Rare" is not the word I would have chosen. I like "less likely than the 1/4 carve up" better than "rare."

Specifically, in a nine player game that is very loose pre-flop, I think you probably get quartered roughly seven or eight times as often as you get sixthed.

Specifically I think it's about 37% for getting quartered to about 5.3% for getting sixthed in a nine player no-fold-'em game. That's as calculated and also as simulated.

Of course in a real game it depends on how many of your opponents will see the flop with another A4XY. (Seems like almost all of mine will).

Buzz

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Agreed.

But in that hand I feel much happier with 6432A Lo, hole cards contributing 4A, than I would on a 843 board, and 2A!

Whilst if players play random hands, the 54 str8 and A4 seem equally likely, actually carefully reading the hand, noting the blinds involvement, and the history of the hand, you can be fairly sure that the 1/6th on Nut Lo will occur less frequently than the 54 str8 will be 1/6 th-ed, in my view anyway!

The logical inconsistency of early replies, was in deciding a 1/4 would be more likely than the 76543 nut str8 to be 1/4-ed; in a loose game and that opponents wouldn't pay off with obviously beaten hands.

Also as you point out, poor players overvalue their hands and the SB could sometimes bet 3 pair on the river, missing the str8. Another reason why I prefer a raise in that spot.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

Rob and Buzz - nice work through as usual.

Thanks

When more chips came my way than the others I went back and looked at the hand and was not sure where my mistake was. The turn seems to be the biggest mistake. I thought it was the river.

Re: I never know how to handle these
 

I agree with Buzz. I would definitely raise on the turn.

- chaos