It\'s time for the R Word...
 

So the game I run will eventually lose its home. I would like to ultimately move it to a space of its own, and to that end I need some sort of sustainability. Even for the time being, I'd like to get help on funding all the little things I do that help make it the fabulous game it is.

So, yeah, this is a rake thread. Well, a "charging players" thread, anyway. People at my game are by and large in favor of a house fee, but I'm not sure what's good or fair. Here's what I'm thinkin'...

Thursday cash game. .25/.50 and .5/1 spread. There's usually $2-3k in the room, 15-25 players. I'm thinking of $2 off the top for those who buy-in to the $40 game, $5 off the top of the $100 game. Additionally, anyone who leaves with more than $200 kicks in another $5. Anyone who moves up games pays the additional $3.

Tuesday tournaments. This is a extension of what I've tried periodically instead of a cash game. We'd try different sorts of games, mix it up. I may do some 8-week series here and there for freerolls, WSOP packages, etc. For most of those, $50 buyin (or $45+$5 if it's for a points prize) and $10 vig.

For both of these I provide snacks and a stocked bar of hooch/soda. BYOB, but I have coolers and ice. Plenty of weed floating around.

I'll also move the big monthly Thursday donkament to one Sunday a month, probably increase the stakes and vig. Right now I charge $15 (aside from a few initial grumbles when I bumped it up from $10, nobody has any problem), which gets three or four beers, soda, and 1/3 to 1/2 a pizza, and it funds the hooch for the regular games. Having it on a weekend daytime would allow a much larger tournament, even deeper stacks, longer rounds, more tables, etc (40-50 people should work well). Probably pop that to $20 vig but have catered food, kegs, etc.

How does this seem to people? I'd really like to charge the least amount that reasonably does what I need it to do. I would be working fewer hours in order to put these on, so I need it to be something that will fund itself and give me some carrying around money. Tho' I'll be reinvesting most of it right back into improvements for the game, and ultimately finding a permanent home with even better upgrades. So those playing would have to understand that I'm just one guy and I need help maintaining something we've all come to cherish.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Horror stories?

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

In my mind, the next step regarding location is a shared space with public access (ie, not a home), to which several trusted people have keys. That way we can run games and rotate who's there to babysit. House fees would of course go to compensate the person. And the space would be paid for in cash with no paper trail, and no records on the premises.

Regarding the game, of course we'll be at 1/2 eventually, but we just started with .5/1. I figure at 1/2 we can experiment with having a dealer or two work for tips (and free imbibition). But for that to work, we need more turnover, so it'll have to wait for the bigger space with better security.

I'll also have a small kitchen for finger foods.

This is, of course, all hypothetical. A "what if I lived somewhere where this was totally legal, so don't worry about talking about it" kind of thought experiment.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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Thursday cash game. .25/.50 and .5/1 spread. There's usually $2-3k in the room, 15-25 players. I'm thinking of $2 off the top for those who buy-in to the $40 game, $5 off the top of the $100 game. Additionally, anyone who leaves with more than $200 kicks in another $5. Anyone who moves up games pays the additional $3.

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This seems way too complicated. Sounds like you've been running this game a long time. You know how much you spend on average for the food/drink, and you know how many players come to the game on average. From this point, it's simple math. If you spend on average $100 and you get on average 20 players, charge $5 a player and be done with it. Alternatively, charge the house fee on the way out the door: if this week you spent $120 and only 12 players showed, charge them $10 as they cash out.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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charge the house fee on the way out the door: if this week you spent $120 and only 12 players showed, charge them $10 as they cash out.

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What about the guys who don't cash anything out?

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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charge the house fee on the way out the door: if this week you spent $120 and only 12 players showed, charge them $10 as they cash out.

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What about the guys who don't cash anything out?

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I think you're taking me a little to literally. I just mean charge each player his or her pro rata share of the expenses before leaving. Do it at any time that is convenient.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

THis is probably going to sound a little harsh. Try to think of it as "tough love"

Basically, it sounds illegal. But you probably know this already. My next concern would be losing control of the game and who plays in it. You've already experienced one problem. Creating an illegal game, with a lot of money floating around, operating in a undisclosed location, is asking for trouble in my opinion. Not even going to get into the controlled substance issue... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But should you decide to pursue this I think a "cover charge" or possibly a "time" charge would be appropriate and easiest to manage. You could also have a two drink minimum....lol

Assuming players feel they are getting value for the fee, then this shouldn't be an issue. But if your "fee" is the same or more as the local, legal establishment, of which there are several to choose from, why would I play in your game?

Didn't read your 2nd post before responding

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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In my mind, the next step regarding location is a shared space with public access (ie, not a home) <SNIP>
And the space would be paid for in cash with no paper trail, and no records on the premises.


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As an honest landlord (i.e. one who has folks fill out a lease agreement and pays taxes on the income generated from my property) I assure you even if you paid me in cash there would be a paper trail.

Maybe you have an "under the table agreement" with someone who owns property? Do you think they are making enough money off you to lie for you when the authorities go and knock on their door and ask who is responsible for the potential illegal activities in the space they own?

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

Heh, thanks all for your blunt responses.

First off, I'm very good friends with a lawyer.

I'm not opening up an underground card den. Yet, anyway. Right now it's a matter of keeping more or less my same game, just trying to find the best way to make it work without opening up the game to higher turnover. My concern is more security than legality.

mxp2004, I don't see how it's complicated. It's a lot simpler than a percentage rake, which is way too cardroom-y for me. The game feels like a big home game, I want to retain that as much as possible. It's a cover charge. And, for some, a processing fee.

I can't just ask for money to cover the night's expenses, because I'm looking beyond that. There is economy in scale. I buy liquor by the case. And expenses fluctuate. Could be a new table one week, chairs the next, replacement cards, lighting fixtures, artwork, pinball machines, movie screen, etc.

SmallFry, I think there's a hell of a lot of value. At a cardroom, you pay $4 a pot and another $1/2 for tip, and alcohol is not included. I'm asking $5 a night cover charge, $5 donation more if you win. If anyone made a stink about it, I wouldn't force the person. But nothing says I have to invite him/her back.

whisker, you're right about that, this is more pipe dream territory. But I live in the Bay Area. There are alternate economies. You'd be surprised what's out there, and how much of it there is.


As I said, my main concern is security. I'm not going to open the game up too much while I'm still renting at a residence shared by others. But I think the way I'm envisioning will be a happy medium... keep the cash games with the same crowd (and trusted friends of same, so slow growth). And the weekly tournament series, also same intimate group. But the monthly things, those we open up for people to invite people from their other games (and 2+2ers). The vig is larger, so with more people, it's a monthly boost to the fund that improves the room as a whole. And we only invite the folks we really like to join us on our other days. We don't even mention it to anybody else. And if it slips, oh well, too bad, this is what they get to play in.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

Mine was mostly a rhetorical question. But it's one you need to answer to keep the game alive.

I still think a base fee is the way to go. If you are able to keep track of when players come and go, then a time fee becomes more realistic. Or even a combo of the two. Initial cover charge up front, followed by a time charge when they leave. This gets them in the door cheap. Of course it does pose a problem with the guy that loses all his cash so you'll want to install an ATM. I'd extend credit also at .5% interest. Compounded weekly. Excepting credit cards might become problematic initially but I know a guy at Visa who I can put you in touch with... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

ps. hope that lawyer feels the same about you. And that his expertise is in something other than acquisitions and mergers....lol

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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I can't just ask for money to cover the night's expenses, because I'm looking beyond that. There is economy in scale. I buy liquor by the case. And expenses fluctuate. Could be a new table one week, chairs the next, replacement cards, lighting fixtures, artwork, pinball machines, movie screen, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is clearly not a typical home game.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

What about a prvate club with monthly membership fees? Seems like guys have been getting around the laws for years by having this type of setup. This results in no rake, but you still get your expenses covered. And hey, if the guys in your club want to play cards, that's their business.... You are just charging them club dues. Your lawyer buddy might be able to help you here.

Maybe you could call yourselves the "Rabbit Hunting Club of America".

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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What about a prvate club with monthly membership fees? Seems like guys have been getting around the laws for years by having this type of setup. This results in no rake, but you still get your expenses covered. And hey, if the guys in your club want to play cards, that's their business.... You are just charging them club dues. Your lawyer buddy might be able to help you here.

Maybe you could call yourselves the "Rabbit Hunting Club of America".

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You, my friend, are a genius. Absolutely brilliant

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
What about a prvate club with monthly membership fees? Seems like guys have been getting around the laws for years by having this type of setup. This results in no rake, but you still get your expenses covered. And hey, if the guys in your club want to play cards, that's their business.... You are just charging them club dues. Your lawyer buddy might be able to help you here.

Maybe you could call yourselves the "Rabbit Hunting Club of America".

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Just this weekend I stumbled across something that seems like this in Portland, OR.

http://www.portlandrounders.com/

They claim to be "a membership based semi-private club that is open to the public." Their schedule says they have games every night of the week. I have not checked them out yet, but plan to do so sometime soon. Interesting part of town though. Not the shadiest, but there are many other places I'd like to stumble around after dark with a pocket full of dough (cause of course I'd be a winner [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

And as a side note ... any other folks in the Portland area? I've heard rumors of some card clubs in the area, anybody know of any? Driving two hours to the coast for Live NL isn't the most feasible thing to do any given night.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

That's probably a good idea if I ever move up to buying a building and setting up nightly games. As I was talking about where to take our game with a lawyer who plays in it, he was interested in helping me set up a corporation to shield myself a bit. If it ever moves to that level, I'll certainly be talking ahead of time with many people to minimize my risk.

But for now, really, I was more interested if in you'd play in the game with the rates I proposed. Does it seem fair?

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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But for now, really, I was more interested if in you'd play in the game with the rates I proposed. Does it seem fair?

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It's hard to imagine that anyone would object to those rates, especially if you are buying booze. I mean, most players are going to burn more than $2 or $5 worth of gas getting to game.

As far as the legality is concern, make it a "suggested donation" and make it technically optional - I would imagine that virtually everyone you would trust to invite to this game are cool enough that that they wouldn't be a douchebag over a lousy $5. A healthy dose of social pressure should be enough enforcement.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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That's probably a good idea if I ever move up to buying a building and setting up nightly games. As I was talking about where to take our game with a lawyer who plays in it, he was interested in helping me set up a corporation to shield myself a bit. If it ever moves to that level, I'll certainly be talking ahead of time with many people to minimize my risk.

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Hee Hee, ask Bernie (world com) if he feels a corporation helped him.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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But for now, really, I was more interested if in you'd play in the game with the rates I proposed. Does it seem fair?

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Heck yea. If I am ever down your way on business (or pleasure), I'll be asking if I can drop into one of your games.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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Well, a "charging players" thread, anyway.

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No, it's a "sharing the expenses" discussion.

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I'm thinking of $2 off the top for those who buy-in to the $40 game, $5 off the top of the $100 game. Additionally, anyone who leaves with more than $200 kicks in another $5. Anyone who moves up games pays the additional $3.

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Why? It's not profit sharing, it's a shared expense. Everyone (INCLUDING you) should pay the same amount.


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and a stocked bar of hooch/soda. BYOB, but I have coolers and ice. Plenty of weed floating around.

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This is where you're steering towards trouble. You do not want to end up on the wrong side of your state liquor board, or the DEA (local or otherwise)


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How does this seem to people? I'd really like to charge the least amount that reasonably does what I need it to do.

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"need it to do" needs more clearly defined. You might want to re-examine whether "want" means "need"

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and give me some carrying around money.

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Now you're veering off into the underground cardroom weeds again.... not my recommendation.

The semi-private club idea was a bit intriguing, but can you limit access to just poker nights? Will the neighbors in the location's area have problems? What about security?

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can't just ask for money to cover the night's expenses, because I'm looking beyond that. There is economy in scale. I buy liquor by the case. And expenses fluctuate. Could be a new table one week, chairs the next, replacement cards, lighting fixtures, artwork, pinball machines, movie screen, etc.

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We had a similar thread about half a year ago, I think, where many argued against the willingness to pay for a palace that they don't get to keep as their own.
How high is this nightly expense fee going to be, to cover all of that?

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

Look, setting up a corporation doesn't shield you from criminal liability.

Every state statute that I have ever seen would treat a "paid membership" system no differently then any other scheme to make money from gambling activity.

The worst thing someone running an illegal gambling operation can do is to try to convince themselves and there players that what they are doing is legal. Understand that it is illegal, keep it low key, don't advertise openly, don't compete with legal businesses, and keep out players who can't use proper discretion about your operation.

When you pretend that it is legal then people talk to much, and then the neighborhood bar decides they are going to do the same thing and then a bunch of these spring up opnely and that attracts law enforcement attention to them and to you.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

Here in Utah there were some card clubs that got around the gambling laws by charging fees for a preliminary tourney that paid no prizes, only an entry into a freeroll held on another day that had a substantial non-cash prize (like a big screen TV).

These places were full-bore commercial places that advertised. One of them was in business for over a year and might still be operating. The law did not have the energy to bother with bringing gambling charges, one of them was just hassled to death with zoning violation charges.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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Here in Utah there were some card clubs that got around the gambling laws by charging fees for a preliminary tourney that paid no prizes, only an entry into a freeroll held on another day that had a substantial non-cash prize (like a big screen TV).

These places were full-bore commercial places that advertised. One of them was in business for over a year and might still be operating. The law did not have the energy to bother with bringing gambling charges, one of them was just hassled to death with zoning violation charges.

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Don't confuse getting around the law with simply being ignored. I just took a look at thtah statutes and its pretty clear that the activity you described falls within the prohibitions of the Utah gambling statutes.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

I play in a similar game as you propose. This is how it is handled, and I seem to like it. When we buy in, $20 gets you $19 in chips (you can adjust as needed) but I like it because nobody ever has to "pay". If you win big, or bust out, there never is that holding-your-hand-out moment which we used to have. As the night progresses and the pots and purse build, someone buys in for $100 and receives $95 in chips. It's 5%, less than you'll find anywhere around here. You said you get around $2500 in the purse, thats $125. Is that enough? If not, adjust it up. People don't miss the money as much if you take it at buy in, most dissassociate the money from the chips anyways. IMO

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

Thanks all for the additional feedback. This is still an idea forming, so it's nice to get all the perspective. And yes, I know this is totally illegal. That doesn't concern me so much. Security down the road as I grow, that concerns me.

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No, it's a "sharing the expenses" discussion.

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At first, yes, which is why I have no worries at all about this phase of it. I'm just thinking down the road. Basically, I want a clubhouse. Not a formal business, just a building that a bunch of us have to enjoy. Some nights there's poker.

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Everyone (INCLUDING you) should pay the same amount.

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Absolutely. My plan is a coffee can kind of thing, sealed with a slot. I drop my chips in it with everybody else. I just, y'know, pocket them at the end of the night. At least at my current setup. Once I move it, I'd want to keep it self-sustaining, so funds would be kept separate, and expenses taken out of them directly, rather than just absorbed from my overall income.

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"need it to do" needs more clearly defined. You might want to re-examine whether "want" means "need"

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Fair enough. Want to do, then. I have a dream, damnit. It just so happens that all of my predilections point to me working adjacent to the law.

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Will the neighbors in the location's area have problems? What about security?

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This is my primary concern, but that's down the road, so I'm not worrying yet.

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We had a similar thread about half a year ago, I think, where many argued against the willingness to pay for a palace that they don't get to keep as their own. How high is this nightly expense fee going to be, to cover all of that?

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People seem to really like my game, the balance of professional and casual, and the overal atmosphere I work to create. They mostly seem happy to do what they can to keep it going. And in fact some of my ideas will make it overall cheaper for the regulars.


It's probably back in the thread, but here's what it seems to be boiling down to: Same closed group (plus slow growth of friends of trusted regulars) for the weekly cash games and small tournament series.

Cash games: 5% off of your intial buyins up to $100, plus an extra $5 if you cash out $200 or more (regardless of what you bought in for). Simple, easy, just a voluntary but strongy encouraged donation to the tin can.

Weekly tourneys: 10% off the top. I plan to do mostly shootouts and heavily weighted first prize structures.

Monthly tourneys: This is where we open it up to friends of friends, other poker groups, 2+2ers, etc. $20 (up from $15 now) for what will probably be a $100-$200 total buyin (up from $60-$100) with rebuys and addons. These are the events with the catered food and full bar. And with various connections I have, this will be hopefully be twice my expenses, so this is what really fuels the big upgrades. If it comes to it, I could probably set up some sort of legal charge by the catering company, who then donates it back to the house. And the cool folks we like from these get invited to the weekly games.

But holy crap, absolutely no advertising other than word of mouth, and everyone is warned to keep it mum and only talk with trusted people. I have names and contact info for everybody (once we move, kept offsite). Granted, it can't be contained forever, but I don't think at this level we're in much danger from the law. Security, on the other hand, will have to be addressed eventually.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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We had a similar thread about half a year ago, I think, where many argued against the willingness to pay for a palace that they don't get to keep as their own.

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Thisis a good point. I don't mind paying a reasonable rake provided I am getting something for the rake. The most important thing to me is that the game be provided. That doesn't mean the place, table, and cards, that means the players. If the game consists of the same small group of friends we don't need you to make the game. We could have the game at anyones house its just a group of friends getting together. But if you are bringing a wide array of people who simply would not be available to me as players then you are providing the game to me.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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But holy crap, absolutely no advertising other than word of mouth, and everyone is warned to keep it mum and only talk with trusted people. I have names and contact info for everybody (once we move, kept offsite).

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Out of curiousity, how did you build your players' list? Do you do any kind of screening before inviting players to your games? I don't run games on the same scale that you do, but I am looking to expand beyond my current group and just want to be careful about who gets invited to my home.

I don't want to hijack your thread, and so feel free to send me a PM if you don't think it's appropriate to respond here. Thanks for any help.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

I think any serious advice has already been provided, let me just say that your set-up (both present and possibly future) is amazing.

I wish we had a game as frequent and varied as yours. Keep up the good work, and best of luck on staying out of trouble.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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I think any serious advice has already been provided, let me just say that your set-up (both present and possibly future) is amazing.

I wish we had a game as frequent and varied as yours. Keep up the good work, and best of luck on staying out of trouble.

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second that motion

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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I can't just ask for money to cover the night's expenses, because I'm looking beyond that. There is economy in scale. I buy liquor by the case. And expenses fluctuate. Could be a new table one week, chairs the next, replacement cards, lighting fixtures, artwork, pinball machines, movie screen, etc.


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Call yourself a poker player? This is just variance. Work out what the average is, and as long as you start out with the correct B/R you'll be fine, right?

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mxp2004, I don't see how it's complicated. It's a lot simpler than a percentage rake, which is way too cardroom-y for me. The game feels like a big home game, I want to retain that as much as possible. It's a cover charge. And, for some, a processing fee.

SmallFry, I think there's a hell of a lot of value. At a cardroom, you pay $4 a pot and another $1/2 for tip, and alcohol is not included. I'm asking $5 a night cover charge, $5 donation more if you win. If anyone made a stink about it, I wouldn't force the person. But nothing says I have to invite him/her back.



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The simplest way for me, and the way that doesn't leave anyone feel bad, is this. Cinsider the average pot is x. Take y from every pot that is 4Xx, up to a maximum of z.

Where y= a nominal ammount that the winner of a large pot will hardly miss.
z= average weekly running costs +small ammount extra to build your business 'B/R'.

Simpe eh?

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

Yay, finally some positive feedback! Tho' to be fair, I went a bit gung ho crazy with the first post. I think most can see that my next "phase" isn't really that big of a deal.

Yes, I bring in players from a variety of sources. These people would not be able to play each other anywhere else.


How I Built My Game:

I grew it somewhat quickly, but didn't try to go meteoric too soon. First I gathered a few friends, only a couple of whom played poker with any sort of skill, for a BBQ and $10 cash game. Kept that up for a couple of weeks and then I tapped my other games. I had been building the network of games for a couple of years (tho' without the intent of starting my own), but I wanted to at least have something "established" at my house before inviting them.

My regular game was at a biker clubhouse, and it just so happened that some newer cash-filled poker enthusiasts showed up the first time I spread the word about my new game, so that was an immediate boost, and in fact they play my game more than at the bikers. A couple of the other regulars also make frequent appearances.

I had an occasional game with two other groups... one, a bunch of UC Berkeley grad students. The other, a game in the back room of a restaurant/bar. I pretty much absorbed both of those games, and they were instrumental in getting this one off the ground.

I also posted to one of those meetup sites, which I won't do again. The few folks I got from it are nice enough, just nothing really in common with me other than poker. I posted to craigslist, which I won't do again for security reasons, and because it attracted some of the best players we have. But those players are all great people and share many of my other interests and hobbies. I did structure my post in a way so that the sort of people I wanted to attract would recognize it, and I filtered people based on how I felt about their responses.

Basically now I just have the people I like invite friends of theirs, tho' I've had to cut that out a lot lately due to lack of space. I got very lucky that I hit a good combination of people right from the start, people who appreciate what I do (as many of them have hosted and stopped because of the headaches) and want to keep it alive.

Okay, so that's building the player database, but how did I attract and keep them? I started with a lot of tournaments, usually every two or three weeks. Food, booze, custom TD software, league tracking, big flashy payouts, etc. People like tournaments, so I viewed them as advertisement for the cash games. It was a safe environment with a fixed price to get comfortable with all these new people. Now that we know each other, the cash games also run quite well, and the tournaments are monthly. And I was also lucky that the friend who owns the catering company donated a full table, chairs, and booze/food to that first tourney. He also occasionally stops by with leftovers during the cash games, and lemme tell ya, people REALLY enjoy those nights. Newer people are usually floored when it happens. But back to the tournaments, I also spent several months tweaking the structure to get the proper mix of playability/time, and to generate a huge prize pool due to unlimited rebuys for two hours (plus addon after that). Boil a frog slowly, they always say.

I also try to make all of my guests feel comfortable and appreciated. I welcome them to the game, I'm cognizant of their tastes and desires, I try to be the right mix of fair and flexible, I listen to their concerns, I walk them out when they bust and let them whine at me, etc. I always have booze, I play good music on a nice system, I have warm lighting. I make the tournaments an "event" and give funny little writeups afterwards. I shmooze. Nice tables, good cards, decent chips. And, most importantly, Rule #1: No A-holes. I've kicked people out and given others vacations, and I'll do it again. The needs of the many.

And... location location location. The room is kickass, and it's separated from the house, so we can go into the wee hours (dawn has happened a couple of times). It also allows for people who lose to sort of fade into the night rather than have that walk to the door, and I suspect that's a factor in their comfort. We're also a few blocks from the BART, close to the highway, and between several major "hubs" of the area. In fact, this place is so great, I fear the game will suffer when we move, so I have to be very careful about picking the next space.

As to the stakes, I've been increasing those slowly so as not to push people away. We started with $10 10c/25c, moved up to $20 25c/50c, then $40 25c/50c, now we have that game and a $100 .5/1. I try not to make those with a smaller budget feel unwelcome or ostracized, as they're some of my favorite people, but I want the stakes to increase as my own skill/bankroll does. I also do occasional other games, such as dealer's choice if enough want to on the third table, and different sorts of off-week S&Gs (PLO, HORSE, etc), but it's been a while since one of those (which is why I want the weekly tourney series).

So yeah, that's enough masturbatory dribble about how much my game r0xx0rz. But hey, you asked, and I'm rather proud of what I've been able to do here. I've always wanted to improve my other games, but I've never been the host. It's a nice sort of validation to have all my ideas actually work. It's a lot of little things, and the whole is greater than the sum. It's a lot of effort (I spend usually 4-6 hours prep time before tourneys), but very much worthwhile.

And holy cripes, lemme tell ya, the networking has been amazing. And I'm not the type of guy who is good at that. Someone even told me the other day that I have more power than I realize, and a reason people like my game is that they respect that I have everybody's best interests in mind while juggling all that needs to be done.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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Call yourself a poker player? This is just variance. Work out what the average is, and as long as you start out with the correct B/R you'll be fine, right?

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Eh, I want growth. There's no average to that.

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The simplest way for me, and the way that doesn't leave anyone feel bad, is this. Cinsider the average pot is x. Take y from every pot that is 4Xx, up to a maximum of z. Where y= a nominal ammount that the winner of a large pot will hardly miss. z= average weekly running costs +small ammount extra to build your business 'B/R'. Simpe eh?

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Uh. Let's see... either I can just take a small amount off the top and be done with it, no mention of it again... or I can stay sober and involved enough to monitor multiple tables, talk others into staying the same to do the rakes on their tables, and find somewhere to put all this raked money. In other words, a very in your face "yes I am taking your money" approach. And I'd be negatively affecting my game even more than it already is, what with me doing all the rebuys, dealing, and, y'know, trying to play a hand every now and again. Forget about trying to get any good reads on anybody.

I dunno, I like the less painful and obvious and work-involved method. I doubt I'd ever do a rake. I'd do time charge first. Keep in mind that, at least for now, I want to play in my game.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

pfapfap,

lols, I actually got an invite to your game once. It was from the folks in the restaurant/bar, but BART quits so early and I don't have a car so I never could make it.

Anyway, I don't know how portable your set up is, but here's something I've been thinking about. I've got a line on some rooms in downtown SF that can be rented for $10-15 an hour, probably only $40-50 for the night. Depending on the room they are large enough for 2, 3, 4, maybe even 5 poker tables. They have locking doors, and entry could be managed with a cellphone. They are near bars and clubs, so I don't think you'd attract any attention. If your set-up is such that you can pack it in and pack it out in the same night, have you ever considered something like this, instead of signing an actual lease somewhere? I'm sure there's plenty of spots in the East Bay too like this, but I don't know of them off hand.

Also, I'd be willing to help set-up, manage, or grow a game, if you ever wanted any assistance. PM me if any of this sounds interesting or feasible.

RE: the rake, my suggestion is to keep it simple. 5% upon buying chips is easy to track and won't cause many hiccoughs. The $5 for cashing out $200 even if you're losing on the night or whatnot, I think just asks for an argument.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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What about a prvate club with monthly membership fees? Seems like guys have been getting around the laws for years by having this type of setup. This results in no rake, but you still get your expenses covered. And hey, if the guys in your club want to play cards, that's their business.... You are just charging them club dues. Your lawyer buddy might be able to help you here.

Maybe you could call yourselves the "Rabbit Hunting Club of America".

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You, my friend, are a genius. Absolutely brilliant

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We have one of these in my area. Some cops are members. Nuff said.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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Additionally, anyone who leaves with more than $200 kicks in another $5.

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I don't like the way that someone who is leaving with $199 ends up leaving with more than someone who makes $200 in this case.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

Kurt, I realize I had misread your post when I PM'd you earlier... yeah, a room like that would be workable. I'm also considering warehouse loft type of spaces, or just a low-rent storefront. Whatever, that's down the road. For right now I love where we are now, and if I could find a similar place, that would serve mid-term future needs.

I agree that taking $5 at the end is a bit awkward. As to cashing for $199, I was thinking that anything from $199.25 to $200 cashes for $195. But whatever, that's too prone to argument, as that's when the money is getting put in the person's hand. I don't like the idea of charging off of every rebuy, because why make the losing players feel worse? So we'll just go with the $5 off the initial buyin and be done with it. I think people easily drink enough whiskey for that price anyway.

But with the tourneys, 10% off the top is a bit more reasonable, as people are expecting either a big payday or nothing.

Again, I really appreciate all the feedback on this, even if I haven't addressed you directly. I'm in talks with my boss on how to best reduce my hours at work, and I'm making my bankroll liquid in order to take shots at higher games live. This is all part of a lifestyle adjustment attempt. If it works, great, living the dream. If not, oh well, no harm no foul. Worst case scenario, I make some new friends in jail.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

I think once people get used to this, and if it gets going and stays strong, a time charge of total of the blinds once an hour would be easily workable and also something nobody would feel, "oh, that's outrageous". Hell, that's what we pay for the 7-2 game. That's of coure still very low, but it's a good gradual increase. Also if tournaments grow, take a higher percentage. I don't want to kill anybody's expected value in the game or take a lot of money off the table, only increase house take as the game grows.

Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

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Worst case scenario, I make some new boyfriends in jail.

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Re: It\'s time for the R Word...
 

lol has your website really not been updated for 14 years