hand against me: 77
 

You are a friend of mine, playing live with me after a scrumptious dinner and rad dessert. Everyone else at the table is bad, mostly of the loose-passive variety. We sit at opposite ends of the table and play seriously.

I raise UTG+1. Someone coldcalls. You are on the button with 77 and coldcall. The blinds come along.

* FLOP * K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (10 sb, 5 players)

it checks to me and i BET. guy in the middle folds. you RAISE. blinds fold. i 3BET.


what is your plan?

Re: hand against me: 77
 

Call flop and raise your turn bet. If 3bet on the turn, call down.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

So I'm heads up with my pal with bottom set after din din? There is only one question here really: who picked up the check?

Re: hand against me: 77
 

If there was a flush draw on board I'd probably cap the flop. Here I'd wait for the turn.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

are there caps hu?

Re: hand against me: 77
 

Why did I coldcall your UTG raise preflop with only one other coldcaller in the pot? I guess I was very sure the blinds were coming along.

I call and raise the turn, then hate myself because I don't know whether you're smart enough not to 3-bet KQs on the turn.

Alternatively, I 4-bet now and then call down if you give me more problems.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I'm heads up with my pal with bottom set after din din? There is only one question here really: who picked up the check?

[/ QUOTE ]

he did because he is here for work and gets a per diem for food.

how does that help you decide what to do on the flop/turn?

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]
are there caps hu?

[/ QUOTE ]

i should have said: 4 bets is a cap.

there is unlimited raising only when the street starts HU. in this hand, we can go 4 bets on the flop, then as many as we want on the turn and river.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I'm heads up with my pal with bottom set after din din? There is only one question here really: who picked up the check?

[/ QUOTE ]

he did because he is here for work and gets a per diem for food.

how does that help you decide what to do on the flop/turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Too much caffeine Bob?

Seriously though, my goal with this hand would be to pay the least amount of rake on it. So raise/call the flop and call down unless I hit quads.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why did I coldcall your UTG raise preflop with only one other coldcaller in the pot? I guess I was very sure the blinds were coming along.

[/ QUOTE ]

there might have been two coldcallers instead; i don't remember. but assuming just 1 coldcaller and loose blinds, do you just fold here?

[ QUOTE ]

I call and raise the turn, then hate myself because I don't know whether you're smart enough not to 3-bet KQs on the turn.

Alternatively, I 4-bet now and then call down if you give me more problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am smart enough not to 3bet the turn with KQ. does that mean you prefer raising the turn?

also see my note about 4 bets being a cap. does it change your answer?

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]

Too much caffeine Bob?

[/ QUOTE ]

you or me?

[ QUOTE ]

Seriously though, my goal with this hand would be to pay the least amount of rake on it. So raise/call the flop and call down unless I hit quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

we're at a Station casino so rake was maxed out before the flop (10% * $40 == 4 + $1 jackpot drop).

kerowo i don't think i understand what we're talking about?

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Too much caffeine Bob?

[/ QUOTE ]

you or me?

[ QUOTE ]

Seriously though, my goal with this hand would be to pay the least amount of rake on it. So raise/call the flop and call down unless I hit quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

we're at a Station casino so rake was maxed out before the flop (10% * $40 == 4 + $1 jackpot drop).

kerowo i don't think i understand what we're talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly. You are playing HU against someone you know in a casino where there is rake. You made a point about it instead of just giving a read on your freind so that's what I'm responding to more than the hand.

If you are playing seriously at a B&M table then your open raise range from EP probably starts off fairly tight and will loosen up as the fish start to realize that when you raise you have cards. So you probably at least have TP here and probably play it fairly aggressive, so I figure I can get you to 3-bet a raise on the flop but a cap is going to slow you down. Because of this I'm not going to cap the flop.

Against most of your range you are going to see a showdown with this board so I'm going to raise you on the turn, so I can raise you again on the river. That way I figure I can get 3 or 4 bets out of you instead of 2 or 3 by calling the turn and raising the river.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did I coldcall your UTG raise preflop with only one other coldcaller in the pot? I guess I was very sure the blinds were coming along.

[/ QUOTE ]

there might have been two coldcallers instead; i don't remember. but assuming just 1 coldcaller and loose blinds, do you just fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I end up in a 4-handed pot coldcalling with a pocket pair, then I'm unhappy. 5-handed is okay. 6-handed is great.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call and raise the turn, then hate myself because I don't know whether you're smart enough not to 3-bet KQs on the turn.

Alternatively, I 4-bet now and then call down if you give me more problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am smart enough not to 3bet the turn with KQ. does that mean you prefer raising the turn?

also see my note about 4 bets being a cap. does it change your answer?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's close. When you 3-bet the flop, you're declaring your hand to be TPTK or better. Your UTG+1 raise narrows your hand to things like ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo, AA-99. Your flop 3-bet throws out a lot of hands and puts your range down to AA-QQ, AK, and KQ, unless you're trying too hard to outplay your friend.

I probably end up calling the 3-bet and raising the turn, then calling down when you 3-bet the turn as well. I expect to lose to KK/QQ, but there's no way I fold a set. I don't think it matters a whole lot, though.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]
Possibly. You are playing HU against someone you know in a casino where there is rake. You made a point about it instead of just giving a read on your freind so that's what I'm responding to more than the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

the description was supposed to be whimsical. sorry if i mislead you.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing seriously at a B&M table then your open raise range from EP probably starts off fairly tight and will loosen up as the fish start to realize that when you raise you have cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

they never realize, which is what makes them so great.

[ QUOTE ]

Against most of your range you are going to see a showdown with this board so I'm going to raise you on the turn, so I can raise you again on the river. That way I figure I can get 3 or 4 bets out of you instead of 2 or 3 by calling the turn and raising the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think you typo'd something? raise turn raise river?

anyway, it looks like you're calling and popping a big street, so cool.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

cap the flop and if you lead the turn, call down.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

Call down. Our hand is face up at this point.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

I am afraid of overset or super draw because i'm a pansy, but also because i know villain. therefor i call the 3-bet. then call down and start stacking. but upon further evaluation i definitely should have popped the turn and saw what happened, because i don't think it was too scary, but i forget.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

hello friend! thx again for dinner.

[ QUOTE ]
I am afraid of overset or super draw because i'm a pansy

[/ QUOTE ]

can i really have JT here? i don't see any other super draws.

[ QUOTE ]
i don't think it was too scary, but i forget.

[/ QUOTE ]

turn and river were both brickity bricks.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

I'd call the 3bet with the intention of raising the turn.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call down. Our hand is face up at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Like most, my plan was to call the flop 3-bet with the intention of raising the turn.

However, as Shillx points out, what hands were you likely to raise the flop with that you might have reasonably cold-called preflop with ? KQs in addition to your 77 ?

2nd level thinking as opposed to 1st level thinking ? What does my friend expect my hand range to be given how I have played ? So how does that affect our 1st estimate of his hand range, now that he 3-bets the flop ?

I suppose that against a fish that calling the flop 3-bet and raising the turn might be best. However, against a good thinking player, I can now see an argument for just calling down from the flop 3-bet.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

After reading some good arguments for calling down I still think we call the three bet and test you on the turn. Looking at the action I can't see that we have fully defined your hand yet. Nor you ours. Our set could be beat but you could easily be holding KQ, possibly (but not likely) even AA here.

I know we risk being 3 bet on the turn and if we are we still have to call down. But since I am a fish (bonafide) I call the flop 3 bet and raise the turn. Then at least we will know what you are representing.

EDITED TO ADD: Actually I just read James's post and I like his line better. Forget what I said. I am a fish.

Re: hand against me: 77
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are a friend of mine, playing live with me after a scrumptious dinner. Everyone else is mostly of the loose-passive variety, we play seriously.

I raise. Your button is cold, come along.

* FLOP * [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

you checks me and i RAISE.

what is your plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really about pokers?

If it is, I cap flop and lead turn. If not, a little cuddling goes a long way and remember; be safe and take care of each other.