Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

They are located offshore and there is nobody who overlooks them, what reason would they have to not rig the games. and don't give me the [censored] answer that they make so much money on rake so why would they jepordize there company. so many large american companies who were making billions committed fraud, why woulden't some offshore gambling website not do the same?

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

oh.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Link for you.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

You are my new favorite poster.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

I just wanted 2 Robs to post in a row.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Are you trying to start a war?

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Online poker IS rigged. I thought this came out about the same time that we learned wrestling was fake. (Hope I didn't ruin it for you.) The only reason I'm able to win is because I tip the virtual dealer. The more you tip the more you win. Try it.

Also, the poker sites barely break even with the rake they generate. Happy now?

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

If you guys want a serious answer to this question the please go ahead and read.

There are few scenarios for a pokersite to be rigged.

1. firends that seat on same table and clean you out:
this can happen and nothing can be done for that
if you do play cash games, you may / maynot be a victom. you will never know about it cause the site will never tell you they found out about it. ( i dont think they do enagh to keep out people who cheat like this , infact this generate some $$ for them ).

2. The site is rigged and this is known to managment

you can do nothing at all aginast it and you will never know if a site is "valid" or not . never - no matter how many people will tell you they won money there. reason is
if a site is smart ( and belive me they are SMARTER then most of the players ) then they can make an algorithem that will leave 50% of the money for real odds and the rest of the 50 will go to their poket. combine that with robot playing ( software that play alone - no human behind it ) and you got yourself the perfect scam. (some people will still win cause they leave 50% for real odds etc... ).

for an example - a tournament that all prizes are 1,000,000$. the site makes it like this that 500,000 will be devided for real players ( sure - according to their cards ) but the rest of the half million will go to the site .

NO ONE CAN SAY THIS IS NOT GOING ON , NO ONE CAN SAY THIS IS GOING ON . it is a trust issue. if you choose not to trust online poker then just dont play online poker.

3. the third scenario is:

since online poker is a buisness that generates a lot of $$ it is worth it for some people to invest millions of $$ in order to break in to their systems and gain some advantage on other players ( LIKE WATCHING THE CARDS THAT ARE BEING DEALT ).

this can be done , it has been done and it will be done .
like any other good buisness that mobsters try to take over.

I am not saying it is easy , i am saying it can be done , and we the players will know nothing about it.

now - if your losing money STOP PLAYING !

it does not matter if you lose because you suck or because the site is rigged. if you lose your money it is not fun.
if it is not fun - dont play .

try the home game around you and see if you do any better

my guess is that you will still lose , but a lot less then you use to .

thanks ,

Sheshbeshon.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

people here will bash you all over the place.

they are just ignorent people who dont understand the basics of computer security.

again - it is possible to rigg a pokersite. you will have no knowladge/proof of this being done. ( NEVER !).

you may or maynot trust sites, do what you wish , if you lose stop playing !

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Because eventually they would:

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d...astaways-1.jpg

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you may or maynot trust sites, do what you wish , if you lose stop playing !

[/ QUOTE ]

And if you win make sure you make a post about the fairness and integrity of online poker. But hey, what are the chances
of that? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Why would EBay not rig their auctions?

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"How often, asleep at night, am I convinced of just such familiar events — that I am here in my dressing gown, sitting by the fire —when in fact I am lying undressed in bed! Yet at the moment my eyes are certainly wide awake when I look at this piece of paper; I shake my head and it is not asleep; as I stretch out and feel my hand I do so deliberately, and I know what I am doing. All this would not happen with such distinctness to someone asleep. Indeed! As if I did not remember other occasions when I have been tricked by exactly similar thoughts while asleep! As I think about this more carefully, I see plainly that there are never any sure signs by means of which being awake can be distinguished from being asleep. The result is that I begin to feel dazed, and this very feeling only reinforces the notion that I may be asleep." (Descartes' Meditations)

[/ QUOTE ]
Why not discus this instead? What do you hope to add to "online-poker-site-rigging-theory"? Talk about flogging a dead horse...

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Anything is possible. If you go to a card room the dealer may be crooked and dealing better hands to his mate. The casino may force dealers to cheat.

Collusion can go on of course but it can go on live.

For new, small and relatively unknown sites I must admit I am a little wary in parting with my cash.

However, the large well known sites have huge volumes being played, they are audited and they make huge sums from rake. Would they jepordise all that has been built to cheat players? I can't see it.

It is very simple. If you feel so strogly sites are rigged don't play. But let the rest of us get on with a superb pastime whether you are a winner or loser.

My guess is that you continue to play online, you suck at poker and lose and you are looking to blame something other than your ability.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

There is no way to rig a poker site and not get caught. Anyone with a first year stats course can look at hand histories and tell you if something is abnormal.

Further it is simply not worth it to a large site to be rigged. Just take the time to do the math on how much rake income they take in yearly. Now consider if it is rational to risk that for the slightly additional income of rigging the site.

Third why is it that only losing players complain that the site is rigged?

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

obviously, it is possible for online poker to be rigged.

in the case of online poker, i will doubt that it is rigged until people provide evidence to the contrary (such as in the absolute poker case)


similarly, it is possible that flying reindeer exist. in the case of flying reindeer, i will doubt that they exist until people provide evidence to the contrary.


one of the key issues* that discourages potential online poker players is the possibility that the game is unfair. thus, reputable sites such as pokerstars, partypoker, and others, seem to go to a reasonable effort to overcome this.


*i've posted the source of this stuff previously - search my past posts if you care

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way to rig a poker site and not get caught. Anyone with a first year stats course can look at hand histories and tell you if something is abnormal.

Further it is simply not worth it to a large site to be rigged. Just take the time to do the math on how much rake income they take in yearly. Now consider if it is rational to risk that for the slightly additional income of rigging the site.

Third why is it that only losing players complain that the site is rigged?

[/ QUOTE ]

lilholdem is one of the biggest winners online. He said Stars is rigged.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

He is a winner online or a winner on Stars?

Bad players who can adapt to different styles of play on different sites rather then accept their flaw will prefer to blame an outside force for their lack of ability.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

clearly, the "truth" of whether or not sites are rigged has no relationship to the person claiming - whether or not they are rigged is independent of the people claiming that it is rigged.

something does not become true (or false) because of the number or identities of people who believe it. something is true (or false) because it is true (or false).


there is a very high correlation between people claiming that poker is rigged and losing players because believing that poker is rigged is typically a symptom of poor thinking*.

a) the vast majority of claimants are unable to genuinely come up with reasons for their loss other than blaming the sites

b) the vast majority of clamants are unable to provide any evidence that poker is rigged



*i don't know whether poor thinking causes people to believe online poker is rigged inherently. however, the two situations (being "a [censored] moron" and believing "online poker is generally rigged" seems to have a lot of correlation)

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way to rig a poker site and not get caught. Anyone with a first year stats course can look at hand histories and tell you if something is abnormal.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would be very easy to rig a poker site with close to zero risk if you have any brains at all.

[ QUOTE ]

Further it is simply not worth it to a large site to be rigged. Just take the time to do the math on how much rake income they take in yearly. Now consider if it is rational to risk that for the slightly additional income of rigging the site.

[/ QUOTE ]
The "slighty" additional income from a random day could put someones daughter through college.

[ QUOTE ]

Third why is it that only losing players complain that the site is rigged?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am a winner online and I don't know if online poker is rigged or not. The point is that no one knows what's happening behind the scenes but the motive is certainly there.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He is a winner online or a winner on Stars?

Bad players who can adapt to different styles of play on different sites rather then accept their flaw will prefer to blame an outside force for their lack of ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

How simple are you? He is the #1 ranked tourament player on the net.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

lol. i assume you are kidding?

[ QUOTE ]
How simple are you? He is the #1 ranked tourament player on pocketfives.com

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp.


being the best tournament player on pocketfives.com is like claiming to be the tallest midget in the circus.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Why would Amazon not take my CC number that I gave them and run around making a zillion purchases on it?

Why would my local casino not rig their blackjack game again me so that I lose my money faster? Don't give me that garbage that they are already beating me for a decent rate anyway. Obviously they can get my money faster with just a couple slight-of-hand tricks and the chances of them getting caught are incredibly minimal and besides, lots of big corporations who broke laws to make more money were happy to take similar risks.

Why would I not rig my home-poker game to make more money? T


At some point you just have to go on some amount of trust here. If they were rigged it seems extremely likely that it would be able to be detected and it would not lead to significantly more profits to justify the risk. They just wouldn't make that much more over running a fair game imo. Maybe they could set it up to make a little bit more. But not much. They already do well on the rake...and the nature of the game itself leads to the fish winning often enough to stay in the game okay.
People who think that even tournaments are rigged to supposedly redistribute the money back to the fish are just bad at poker. This seems to include a lot of people who like to boldly claim that they have played the game for a really long time and that somehow supposedly makes them an expert.

In the same way that the blackjack dealer who has been doing this for 25 yrs supposedly has seen enough hands and has enough experience to warrant telling me that taking insurance when you have a 20 is almost always a good idea because it's insuring a better hand.

In short, a lot of people are stupid. It's frustrating...but thankfully in the world of poker it's also profitable.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no way to rig a poker site and not get caught. Anyone with a first year stats course can look at hand histories and tell you if something is abnormal.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would be very easy to rig a poker site with close to zero risk if you have any brains at all.

[ QUOTE ]


Really? How do you stop the programmers from spilling the beans if they get laid off, find a better job elsewhere, have a fight with management and want to get revenge, want to make some money selling a juicy story to the press, or a million other reasons? The fact that not a single credible person has come forward saying "I used to program for Party, here's how we rigged action flops" (with evidence) is incredibly strong evidence that the sites are not rigged.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

It would be very easy for WalMart to tack on 5 extra cents in taxes that they would just keep for themselves and I would never notice.
Think of all those customers!!!
Think of all the nickels!!!! It's a ton of profit.

So what if some customer occasionally detects it. Just apologize for the glitch and give him his $0.05 back.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol. i assume you are kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] He was questioning Lilholdem's ability to adapt to players on different sites. OBVIOUSLY, LH isn't necessarily #1, but I think we can all agree that he is a very skilled mtt player and this guy questioning his abilty to adapt is absurd.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Actually anyone who thinks a site can rig poker without it being obvious to anyone with access to a large number of hand histories and basic understanding of stats is a lost cause.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
people here will bash you all over the place.

they are just ignorent people who dont understand the basics of computer security.

again - it is possible to rigg a pokersite. you will have no knowladge/proof of this being done. ( NEVER !).

you may or maynot trust sites, do what you wish , if you lose stop playing !

[/ QUOTE ]

If you accuse other people of being ignorant, at least have the courtesy to use "big people" english. I suppose grammar is rigged too.

Online poker sites' integrity is just as important as their games and software. With a startup site you're taking some (minimal) chances, but if a major site like Stars or FTP were found to be cheating their players they would lose a lot of those players.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Other then they themselves being losing players what evidence does the conspiracy theory group offer for their rigged theory?

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

"All I got in this world are my word and my balls, and I don't bust them for nobody" ..... Tony Montana.

Notwithstanding the allusion above, or the fact that we operate from outside the US, we do not rig our games because that would be dishonest and criminal. We are not dishonest or criminal in our operations or personally.

I am not naive about honesty in general, but you need more than some theoretical construct before you go assuming all online poker sites MUST be rigged.

If you trust that we can stay in business 6+ years by running an honest, fair game, great.

(I have never understood how or why someone would assume that an "offshore" location correlates one whit with either honesty or dishonesty. It is a real canard. If you substitute 'cross-border' for "offshore", somehow the boogeyman vanishes. There is a big world out there, the Internet has made cross-border operations ever more commonplace.)

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

HERE WE GO AGAIN ...............................................

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

You guys are clearly missing something important here. The OP has the "hand shake" avatar, and this is a clear sign of irrationality and/or trolling. Go ahead and look at old threads. Low post count + hand shake avatar = craziness!

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

LOl what would a post like this be without my opinion.

First of all, I am a huge winner on all sites except pokerstars, and I still say all sites are rigged.

Second of all I have the experiance in playing live games and comparing them to online games and visually seeing the difference between realistic poker and rigged poker.

Online poker is definately without a question of a doubt rigged, does that mean that you still cant make money on it ? No ofcourse not, you can still win money online. As I have stated before I have seen the most mediocre players winning the most money online just because their account has a special boost mode on it.

If you dont belive online poker is rigged, than you must belive that all politicians are honest and there is no mafia, and everything in the world is on the up an up.

SEriously do you think the sites would just be happy with the 3 dollars in rake, when there are millions of dollars moving around. It is too simple for them to rig the games, and the fact that everyone has pokertracker makes it even more simple for them to rig the games because they can say look at your PT stats everything is normal. Anyone with half a brain can rig the games and make the stats normal. Anyhow for those of you that win at oonline poker your obviously going to continue playing because its rigged in your favor, but if your losing and you still play than your just a moron.



If it wasnt for those stupid top heavy bonuses on stars I would have quit there long time ago, but they put that carrot out there in front of me and I chased it like an idiot and I am very mad at myself for doing it. Breaking even month after month while I could have been winning tens of thousands other places. Anyways I will take the milestone bonuses and quit playing stars. I have also began educating everyone about online poker and telling everyone I meat that it has been proven that online poker is rigged to get more people away from the sites.

How simple would it be for them to hold in house players on the tables and put GOD MODE on those accounts ?

How simple would it be to make fish win a little bit more often than they are suppose to ?

How simple would it be to have at least 1 house player ( diffferent account all the time ) in every MTT and make sure they make final table and take home 3rd or 4th place ? Thats what an extra couple hundred thousand a month ?

DO you really believe that they wont do this because they are honest people ?

Who is going to catch them ? These companied that they pay big money to audit them ? What if this company finds something wrong with the system would they report this to the public first ? or would they report this to stars first and ask for a big bribe to keep their mouth shut ?

Motive is everything and they definately have huge motive and nothing to stop them. When it comes down to money no big corporation is honest.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
we do not rig our games because that would be dishonest and criminal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Criminal? Really?

Could you point me to a link where this law is proclaimed?

I'm not saying it's not true, I would just like to see it.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we do not rig our games because that would be dishonest and criminal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Criminal? Really?

Could you point me to a link where this law is proclaimed?

I'm not saying it's not true, I would just like to see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

New York state (USA): http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=11860472

USA more broadly: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=11860379

Victoria state (Australia): http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=11859855

I think it is fair to assume that similar laws apply in other Western jurisdictions.

Note: This is not legal advice. If you wish to obtain legal advice, see a professional

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Throughout this post I'm referring to discussions about poker being rigged in reference to the three largest and most reputable sites - PokerStars, FTP and PartyPoker.

Obviously, the chances of poker being rigged is much greater on a small and shady operation.



[ QUOTE ]
Second of all I have the experiance in playing live games and comparing them to online games and visually seeing the difference between realistic poker and rigged poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you are being a lying liar who lies.

In this previous thread it was conclusively proved that you do not have the ability to see "the difference between realistic poker and rigged poker."

[ QUOTE ]
Online poker is definately without a question of a doubt rigged,

[/ QUOTE ]
then provide some evidence.

[ QUOTE ]
As I have stated before I have seen the most mediocre players winning the most money online just because their account has a special boost mode on it.

[/ QUOTE ]
please provide how you knew an account "has a special boost mode on it"

[ QUOTE ]
If you dont belive online poker is rigged, than you must belive that all politicians are honest and there is no mafia, and everything in the world is on the up an up.

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[ QUOTE ]
SEriously do you think the sites would just be happy with the 3 dollars in rake, when there are millions of dollars moving around.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes... when the rake happens over and over, and they can make the most out of the game if it is fair and continues.

[ QUOTE ]
It is too simple for them to rig the games, and the fact that everyone has pokertracker makes it even more simple for them to rig the games because they can say look at your PT stats everything is normal.

[/ QUOTE ]
So everything is normal... but not normal?

[ QUOTE ]
I have also began educating everyone about online poker and telling everyone I meat that it has been proven that online poker is rigged to get more people away from the sites.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are being a lying liar who lies here. It has not been proven that online poker is rigged.

[ QUOTE ]
How simple would it be for them to hold in house players on the tables and put GOD MODE on those accounts ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Much easier than keeping those players to then never tell a soul about it.

[ QUOTE ]
How simple would it be to have at least 1 house player ( diffferent account all the time ) in every MTT and make sure they make final table and take home 3rd or 4th place ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Impossible, because the MTT winners' names are publicly available.

[ QUOTE ]
DO you really believe that they wont do this because they are honest people ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. They also won't do it because it will cost them money in the long term.

[ QUOTE ]
Who is going to catch them ?

[/ QUOTE ]
The public - like they caught Absolute Poker.

[ QUOTE ]
These companied that they pay big money to audit them ?

[/ QUOTE ]
...so now it is a massive, inter-company conspiracy?

[ QUOTE ]
What if this company finds something wrong with the system would they report this to the public first ? or would they report this to stars first and ask for a big bribe to keep their mouth shut ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're throwing around entirely baseless and offensive accusations at a whole second group of people.

You should stop lying like a lying liar who lies.

[ QUOTE ]
Motive is everything and they definately have huge motive and nothing to stop them. When it comes down to money no big corporation is honest.

[/ QUOTE ]
Motive is not everything.

Evidence is everything.

As usual, you have provided no evidence.

Your claim that "no big corporation is honest" is a testament to the idiocy of your thinking, of your posts, and of your claims in general.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

Josem, I think you miss a key point.

There may be no law prohibiting online poker to be offered by an offshore operator and accessed by players from the US. The US Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit differs with what the FBI website link obliquely refers to.

That an honest online poker game is not prohibited by Federal statute should not insulate a rigged game from a variety of statutory prohibitions related to dishonest schemes and fraudulent practices.

SO .... why would an online poker site which can legally offer US players honest games open itself up to potential added problems by rigging its games dishonestly ? The question is largely rhetorical. An honest operator would not, a dishonest operator might, an ethical issue just as in any other lawful business.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we do not rig our games because that would be dishonest and criminal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Criminal? Really?

Could you point me to a link where this law is proclaimed?

I'm not saying it's not true, I would just like to see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

New York state (USA): http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=11860472

USA more broadly: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=11860379

Victoria state (Australia): http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=11859855

I think it is fair to assume that similar laws apply in other Western jurisdictions.

Note: This is not legal advice. If you wish to obtain legal advice, see a professional

[/ QUOTE ]


Without even debating whether or not those laws you listed could even be applied to a "rigging" case, they most certainly would not apply at all to TruePoker due to their location.

TruePoker mentioned the criminality aspect, insinuating it would be illegal, and I'd like to see if that is in fact true, considering his jurisdiction. Costa Rica, Antigua, or wherever he is located.

Re: Why would online poker sites not rig their games?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way to rig a poker site and not get caught. Anyone with a first year stats course can look at hand histories and tell you if something is abnormal.


[/ QUOTE ]


just FYI, there is a poster on 2p2 with 17k posts and at least a first year stats course who says he has done a statistical analysis of a huge number of hands and concluded that several sites including stars are almost certainly rigged.

favorite hand wins 95% as often as expected
(also search/see dozens of other posts by same poster...)