KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

Loose, mostly passive Friday night B&M 3/6 game

Main opponents here:

BB – older Asian man, 95% preflop, will call to river with any piece of the flop or draw

MP1 - young kid, barely looks 21, ~40-50% preflop, raises good hands after flop, hasn’t been at table very long

MP2 - little older, 50-60% preflop, raises good hands after flop, calls down light

I’m on the button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

5 limpers to me, I raise, SB folds, BB and all the limpers call.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7 players, 13 SB after rake

Checked to the CO who bets, I raise (??), BB calls, some folds, MP1 3 bets, MP2 caps, folded to CO who folds, I call 2 more (??), BB calls.

CO was ~50% preflop, obviously pretty experienced with post flop play, had taken shots at pots with air. I didn’t think he had a flush when he bet. After he folded, he apparently didn’t even have one spade. I raised to try to knock out players who did not have a club to improve my chances. Clearly if another club came, my hand was dead. MP1 or MP2 could already have a flush here.

Turn: [5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4 players, 15 BB

BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, I call (??), everyone else calls.

MP2 might have the flush in which case I’m drawing dead, and a raise isn’t going to knock anyone out, so I just called.

River: [5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4 players, 19 BB

BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, I call (??), BB folds, MP2 calls

By the river only MP2 could have the flush, and my gut feeling was he didn’t have it either, but with this many players somebody must have a 9 or two pair on this board. The pot was just too big to fold, so I called. Comments?

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

given your line, fold on the flop when it's 2 more back to you

i would have just called the flop the first time

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

Yikes. Personally, I might just smoothcall the flop and then go for a turn raise if a nonclub drops. The flushdraws are never folding and your equity goes way up on the turn.

When MP2 caps this I'm folding. Do you really think this weak tight old man is capping the flop w/ anything but a flush?

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

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When MP2 caps this I'm folding. Do you really think this weak tight old man is capping the flop w/ anything but a flush?

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MP2 was not weak tight, he was way too loose, usually passive, and called way to many hands down. Still I did not feel good about calling this. I just didn't feel sure he really had the flush as compared to just one big club.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

flop is an easy fold when it's 2 back to you; MP2 is check/cold-capping a monotone board into multiple players including the PFR, you are toast.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

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MP2 was not weak tight, he was way too loose, usually passive, and called way to many hands down. Still I did not feel good about calling this. I just didn't feel sure he really had the flush as compared to just one big club.

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Sorry Mike, I don't know how I interpreted 50-60% preflop as tight, lol.

Nonetheless, when it's 2 back to you w/ top pair this is a fold. Best case scenario, they all only have 1 club (with MP2 holding Ac) or possibly 2 pair, and the rest of the time you're drawing dead or near dead against a flush/set. Seems like this could get pretty expensive only to hit and find out you're dead anyways. Find a better spot.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

Just call the flop. Ac Xz is never folding, and by raising you might get rid of people who are basically drawing dead with things like Jc Xz, 4c 4d etc.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

Your line is OK, lots and lots of live limit players cap the flop withOUT the goods. It's a spot to show strength w/o having to put in lots of money (just lots of bets [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]).

Only thing is...is you say the game is loose PASSIVE, which makes me want to muck after the flop c/r three bet then c/r cap. If that's the case, I think you have to fold and wait for a better spot.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

call the 1st flop bet and fold once you have to call all those other bets.

the only time you can get aggressive with this hand is if everyone calls the 1st flop bet, and the turn is a blank rag. you can then do a turn raise/fold.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

next time buy MP2 a drink, its cheaper than donating 3 big bets.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

i'm not so concerned with either calling the flop or raising the flop. unless you're expert at runner/runner boats or quads i HATE calling the flop when it's two cold back to us.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

My gut feeling on the flop was that MP1 and MP2 did not have a made flush. I thought they probably had a single club, and probably not a big one. There were other players at the table that I would have folded to a raise. At the time I thought that if MP1 or MP2 had the made flush, they would wait for the turn. In retrospect this may not have been true if one of them had a small made flush and they were trying to get people with one bigger club to fold.

My thinking was that 60% of the time there would be no 4th club. If nobody already had the made flush and there is not another club, my hand should be good half the time or so.
Still I felt stupid calling the flop cap, the turn and river bets, because the pot was big and I couldn’t believe that MP2 really had the flush. I just couldn’t bring myself to fold as long as the fourth club did not come.

In any event at show down, MP2 had QT, with the T of clubs. MP1 had Q8 (not sure if the 8 was a club). To my complete surprise, my K kicker won the pot.

I’m sure that everyone else is probably right. I should have folded on the flop. I just got lucky.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

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I’m sure that everyone else is probably right. I should have folded on the flop. I just got lucky.

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all we really have to go on is the information provided. you had a level of information at your disposal that had we been aware of, could have very likely led to calling the flop. if i called that flop, and no club came off i'm sure as hell raising the turn. i think we are 3bet by a worse hand never, but i guess the same info that could lead to your calling the flop cap might put is in a situation of calling down a 3bet which blows.

still, the risk given our hand and the pot size is likely worth it. it's just higher EV if we could fold to a 3bet.

Re: KQs on a scary Q high flop
 

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still, the risk given our hand and the pot size is likely worth it. it's just higher EV if we could fold to a 3bet.


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In these Friday night live games many of the players are really bad and just looking to have a good time and gamble a little. I find it hard to trust their betting to really mean what it should mean. I am reluctant to raise, because I’m never sure I’m not up against someone that could bluff 3-bet the turn on a scary board like this. I prefer to just call them down to discourage them from taking shots at me. Of course bad players get good cards too, so they frequently have the goods.