Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

For example:

I knew someone wasn't bluffing me earlier, but i made excuses and called down anyway. Anyone else have this problem, any way to combat it?

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

Alot, see my bet/fold thread that you just commented on. I made it because i find myself bet with the intention of folding but then talking myself into a call. Feel like such a degen after each if these kind of pots.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

anything you do to stop it?

(btw, WA/WB means you either have very good equity vs him or very bad. For example AK on a A72r board. If you're ahead he has at most 3 outs, if you're behind you have at most 3 outs. Your example was not WA/WB because the board was drawy, if he has a flush draw he has 9 outs which has decent equity vs your top pair. On the river it's always WA/WB because you are either 100% to win or 0%.)

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

Is there a particular book this was discussed in? I find I do it more when i'm tired but as yet no solution - hoping for some good ideas in this thread.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

In general it's important to keep the player's entire line in mind. If a bet on the river doesn't keep any consistency with the way he'd played the hand up till now, it's often a bluff. When he's been representing a better hand on all streets and continues to fire on the river, he's usually serious. There are certain opponents capable of running bluffs like the seconds one, but DO NOT assume that everyone does this, because most people do not. Assume they have hands until proven otherwise... let other ppl do the calling down to figure out.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

thanks for the reply yoshi, but that was more poker strategy orientated, as opposed to a psychological view of the situation. (my mindset, and why i went against my instincts)

in the particular hand i played he raised my cbet, I had top pair in position, so i called. The turn was a terrible bluff card and he was a good player, so i knew he probably wouldn't bluff at it (so i had the strategy down cold). However, i reasoned to myself that there weren't many combos that beat me. (any excuse) And called down (lack of discipline, and went against my instincts - what I'm trying to cut down on). Sure enough he flopped a set.

That's my example in full, but it's a general problem I feel I have.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

Good laydowns can only be made when you trust your reads and hand analysis completely, which you probably don`t atm.
My guess is you are in a "call a bet to check a read" phase and that is the most expensive phase of all.

I could be wrong too and it wont be a first time.
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

I can relate to what you are talking about big time. I've struggled a lot with going against reads and then having it affect my play afterwards. I feel like this is one area that seperates good players from great players, and the only real way to combat it is to have confidence in yourself and your reads and most importantly to follow through with them.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

yeah could well be a lack of confidence. Recently moved up to 600nl and haven't been running great.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the reply yoshi, but that was more poker strategy orientated, as opposed to a psychological view of the situation. (my mindset, and why i went against my instincts)

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to recall all the previous times you've been in a very similar situation...

(in this case: you have a strong holding w/ limited hands you're 2nd best to, yet are facing massive strength from a player who is neither capapble of bluffing here nor overplaying a worse hand thinking it is good)

Forget about the times you snapped off a bluff on the river when villain's line was wack - that doesn't apply here. Try to only focus on this specific "feeling" (not in terms of supernatural instincts, but the "feeling" you get from being in this situation before). Now try to recal the times you called and were in fact beat, versus the times you called and were actually best.

A lot of times when I'm really focused on my playing, I will face this situation and my stomach literally "drops" as I contemplate a call here. I'm not a phychologist, but I believe it's my mind preparing for an uncomfortable situation (where I've now made a call I can't rationally support, and to no surprise my hand was no good).

What I'm trying to say is remember that not all river decisions (should I call or not?) are the same. Try to use your past experience to link this river spot to others similar ones from your past, and what the outcomes were.

Hope this helps a little. I think this is an interesting thread. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

yeah that makes sense, interesting idea.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

US: I certainly have the same problem as you at the moment.

Far too often at the moment I recognise a situation and what is going on, and I plan a hand ahead according. Then for no reason at all I go against that plan. It's like I don't trust myself. This problem only worsens itself as I then berate myself for going against what I had planned.

All in all, I end up a long way away from playing optimal poker through this, even if it only happens one hand every few thousand, it adds up big time. I have rediscovered a few things which helped me somewhat overcome this in the past.

Firstly, there is an excellent book you may well have heard of called The Inner Game of Tennis. You can ignore the tennis parts. The majority is about how we best learn new skills by learning through our mistakes without making judgments on them. It is obviously more complicated than that but it is very useful, not at all dense reading and will not take long to read.

Secondly, my best results (as in, I don't go against my instincts) have come when I have been meditating consistently. Doing so for 15-20 minutes at the start of each day really put my head in the right place, especially for playing good poker and making correct decisions. There was an excellent basic guide to meditating in OOT a long time ago HERE.

I hope some of that helps.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

thanks for the reply panda, some unique ideas there, will give them a look! I actually play tennis anyway, so this book sounds like a good read [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

I am in the same shoes unknown soldier. Last night, i completely went against not just instinct but knowledge too. There is this one play i see at stars 5nl who multitables alot, i knew he never bluffs and is tight, always has a strong hand when better, despite this i couldn't fold my AA on the river, despite the board holding2 Ks and me knowing he had AK. I was right of course but i somehow convinced myself i had him.

It sux and im spending today at work thinking about it in a "must conquor this" kinda way. I will beat it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

it certainly is tough sometimes, especially when things aren't going too well for you. I imagine experience (which i havent got a great deal of, I've only played 100k hands of nl which is nothing compared to some players) has alot to do with it too. Good luck with overcoming it CrustyFace.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

I think that it is easiest to go with your instincts when you are playing sufficiently bankrolled. When you are playing with a 100 buyin roll the decisions just come so much more naturally.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

I guess with being so well rolled it becomes less about the mony.

Re: Lack of disciplie and going against your instincts.
 

it shouldnt be about the money anyway, that's another mental block us poker players have to overcome. We play with BBs not $$s.