Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Hey B&M regs, I dont know if you guys read my posts but am a frequent poster on the 2+2 shorthanded forums and multitable 5/10-15/30 stars 6-max online for a living..
I have obtained a healthy winrate at these games just under 2BB/100 over 150k hands for the time ive been pro, so I have the tools to beat moderatly tough limit games.
Only reason I havent moved up is my relativly low bankroll and fear of variance.

I visited commerce for 2 weeks at the end of august and absolutly fell in love with the place.
Way better than any casino ive been to in so many ways..
I mostly played the 20/40 and 40/80, and these games were much softer than my local 20/40, which is much softer than the stars 10/20..

Ive been getting into a rut online with lack of motivation.. I find it very hard to put in hours anymore, because im spending so much time just alone on a computer which drains me psychologically.

I really need to move to a place where they spread soft 30/60+ games on a frequent basis so I can mix up playing online and live to keep me interested in this game.

LA sounds like the perfect canditate..

What im asking is for people who live in LA and play at the commerce professionally to share their experiences.
Compare it to other places?
How is the cost of living there (Im talking numbers, I know its high)?
Are the games getting tougher?
How do the 100/200 games compare to stars 10/20 SH?
Anyone moved from Canada to the states to play poker before?

Any insights at all would be really apreciated...
This applies to playing live pro in general as opposed to online.. So if you moved to vegas and now play live there.. Id be interested in your experiences as well..

Thanks!

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Heisenb3rg -

You should PM Andy Fox/PJ/Mike L/Donkey/Ryno, etc for some insight as well, its good to make friends with your 2+2 peers in real life. a few brief notes (not a lit of time to post a long thread, sorry)

1) Your going to crush the games in LA, no questions asked.
2) Playing live after playing online for so long is often a liberating experience.
3) Downswings live suck. I mean the really suck. Any bad feeling you ever had about swinging down online will be magnified because its so hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
4) I am playing on a short bankroll now just like you are, in fact its so short that I stopped playing at my former limits live (40/80 to 60/120 average) and now only play lower-mid limit games live in the 8/16-15/30 range. I realized I cannot mentally fade the variance as well as I could playing 5/10 - 10/20 short handed online, so I re-routed my money to play online and kept only 100 or so BB for live games. every one is different, find the perfect balance for yourself - dont quit playing online!

5) LA taxes suck, they are very high. The realestate rental market is stable, but you wont find the quality of housing you are used to for similar prices. Driving in LA makes me want to slit my wrists. Groceries are expensive, but the wine is cheep and plentiful because its made in-state. Everyone in LA is a celeb, works in the industry, is sleeping with someone in the industry, or is a star-f**ker... you can choose to embrace that mentality or allow it to slowly get under your skin.

My advice - give it a shot for 3 months. Also consider playing in some bigger games if you can handle the swings and have the extra bank to make it happen, you will do just fine in 100/200 with your skill set.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]

3) Downswings live suck. I mean the really suck. Any bad feeling you ever had about swinging down online will be magnified because its so hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel.


[/ QUOTE ]

The longest I ever broke even online was 50k hands at 5/10 a long time ago. I thought it was the worst thing ever. I was very wrong.

Honestly you'll be making about the same live or online I assume and LA is like the worst place ever. I only play live because I'm a bad player and find online to be boring beyond words.

*edit*
I think TT is really understating how bad it is driving in LA. Keep in mind that I am only driving the freeway to and from San Diego/LA and never drive around town. I still want to murder everything in sight when I park at Commerce or get home.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Playing live blows. Its nice to play every now and then, and I do agree that playing online is psychologically taxing, but having commerce's green felt finger nails, dozens and dozens of idiots roaming around, looking at the faces of people that are true degenerate gamblers is pretty taxing too. You also have to deal with all of the caricatures there, but live games are ridiculously soft, so I guess it can be worth it. I do like your approach of mixing b&r and online.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Just be obsessive like me and wash your hands every hour or so.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

I played with you at Commerce in August (I was the one who suggested you talk to Archie about getting the player rate for your room). Obviously beating the games won't be an issue. Whether you can beat them for enough to keep you satisfied, I don't know...it depends what kind of income and lifestyle you're used to from your online play.

I feel like the 20/40 game has definitely gotten tougher in the past year. I remember you posting about how ridiculously easy the games were one night, when I had played with you the same night and felt like they were mediocre at best. It's all relative. They're still easily beatable, but it seems to me that the proportion of tougher players is a bit higher (there are a lot more 2+2ers than there used to be based on posts here, even though I don't know who many of them are). I'm hoping it's not a trend that will continue. I can't speak to the 40/80 game, because I haven't played it yet.

As for cost of living...it really depends on what your standards are. For an average 1-bedroom apartment in a decent area, expect to pay $1500/month. If you don't mind having roommates, you could pay something like $1000 for your share of a 2-bedroom, and have it be a nicer place too.

I don't think driving the freeways needs to be a very big issue for you. It sucks for people who have jobs with standard hours (like me, but fortunately I live 15 minutes from work), but as a poker player I assume you won't be commuting to Commerce at 8am. As long as you time it right, you can get there from a nice place near the beach in 30-35 minutes.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

I'll just add my token remark about poker being a terrible full-time job for all but the most sick and twisted of people, but it's an amazing part-time job or hobby. My life is best when I love my job and love my time at the table; and I wouldn't want to give up either.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

L.A.'s a big place. It's hard to be specific on cost of living because it varies from area to area. I own a loft in downtown L.A., right opposite Staples Center. It's 1400 square feet or so, two bathrooms, and I get $2,500/month in rent. There are houses near where I live that lease for $30,000 a month.

General cost of living in L.A. would qualify as "high." Gas is more expensive here than most other parts of the country. You need a car, there's simply no other way to get around. A recently published survey confirmed we have the worst traffic in the country. The expensive restaurants are as expensive as anywhere, but since we're a big, spread-out place, you can always find cheap eats if you know where to look.

My advice would be to come out and find an apartment in what seems like a decent, relatively convenient area. Do it for a while and see what you like and what you don't like. Check out other areas to see if you like them better, their affordability, and make a Commerce run a few times at rush hour. There are people who consider L.A. Paradise Found and others who consider it Hell.

You know what to expect in the Commerce 20-40 and 40-80 games since you played them. The 60-120 can sometimes be easier than the 40-80, depending on the day and time or day. The 100-200 is usually tougher. For a pro (I'm not one), I would think the best thing is the game selection. Plus you're very close to The Bike.

It doeesn't seem to me that the games are getting tougher, although it perhaps might be the case from 9AM to 1PM, but that would be the worst time to play in any event.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

It would be a disaster for you to move to LA, the last thing we need is more good players.

Oh, I just realized you don't care about helping my bankrools. In that case, consider the following before moving to LA:

Apartment + utilities + food + misc expenses will probably be an absolute minimum of $2.5k/mo. You'll need a car.

I think people are being silly about the driving thing, it's not that bad if you stay off the roads at all costs between 7-9 AM and 4-7 PM. As a professional poker player, that's actually pretty easy.

You'll need a 500BB bankroll to handle at least 40/80 and a few month's expenses. I wouldn't play 20/40 professionally, I don't think you'd enjoy just barely making ends meet.

The culture shock from Canada -> LA is going to be severe.

My best recommendation is this - find a buddy, a relative, anyone who lives in LA and stay with them while you try things out. Play live here for at least 4 weeks before making a final decision on whether to pull up stakes and move out.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Do you really think playing live will change your mindset on a permanent basis? If you think you're the type that will say, "I don't feel like driving all the way out there tonight, I'll just put in some hands online," you should probably think some more before you move out there.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would be a disaster for you to move to LA, the last thing we need is more good players.


[/ QUOTE ]

haha i was thinking the same thing. Good luck though boss.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You'll need a 500BB bankroll to handle at least 40/80 and a few month's expenses.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
multitable 5/10-15/30 stars 6-max online for a living...
I have obtained a healthy winrate at these games just under 2BB/100 over 150k hands for the time ive been pro, so I have the tools to beat moderatly tough limit games.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to be a math major to know that Heisnb3erg is balling and can easily play the 40 if not the 60 and the 1.

Heisenb3rg: There is no way you will have any problem being a winning player at Comm. I lurk in SSSH quite a bit, and there's no way you shouldn't be able to breeze through the 40 or higher with some minor live adjustments.

A better question, which everyone else here has pointed out is whether or not you will enjoy live poker in the long-run as well as LA's culture. Do you like hot babes, earthquakes, smog, hot babes, traffic, hot babes, the sun and the sand, moviestars, only getting 35 hands per hour, hot babes and more hot babes?

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

If I could beat the games you are beating for what you are baeting them for I wouldn't be playing live in LA everyday. Not that this necessarily means anything to you, but live poker might be fun when it's something new, but if you turn it into a career it is utterly dreadful.

All-in-all I think you'd be better off renting a corporate apartment of some sort for months at a time, or just staying at the Commerce. Spend a month or two here a couple times of year but don't move for live poker unless you are mediocre or the online games are too tough.

-Michael

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

you're going to need a car. and you'll develop an anger towards la traffic/drivers.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
you're going to need a car. and you'll develop an anger towards la traffic/drivers.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is seriously no joke. la has the worst drivers in the nation by far.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

If the Hawaiian Gardens could just get a 60/120 going now with 4$ total rake that Commerce 60/120 and its BS $12/half hour time charge would be gone and Id be able to pay half what i do now.

Yeh 60/120 is pretty easy imo (this is what I primarly play). It gets a lot harder at 100/200.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Thanks for all the advice guys...

I have multiple respectful people now saying the 100/200 game is significantly tougher than the 60/120..
Oh well, thats all long term goals anyways.. Im not rolled for that yet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

From experience mixing live/online has worked so far to spice things up... The pace of live can really get to me at times... But the antisocial nature of online really gets to me at times. So balancing is key.

I loved LA in general, not just the poker.. Granted I was a tourist, im sure living there is quite different ... The driving was bad but it wasnt THAT bad (im from toronto which helps).

Now I just gotta find classifieds or somethinng that lists cheap apartments semi-close to commerce... and sells used cars..

ps I like hot women

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Not sure if you're famaliar w/ craigslist or not, but here is a good classified web site that does both:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

I have no clue whatsoever why no one ever mentions Whittier as a viable living option for a Commerce player. Its the closest reasonably nice area to Commerce, and rents for a 1 br are in the 950-1100 a month range. The area north of Whittier Bl, and in particular either north of Beverly, or near uptown and the college are nicer. If staying a few months to try things out is what you want to do, I'm willing to bet you can get a guest house north of Beverly for uless than that. Anyway, drive to Commerce from uptown Whittier is about 20 minutes at non traffic hours and 30-40 minutes max at rush hour. The nice thing is, its close enough that you can drive on the street or the freeway.

The closest nice area is parts of Downey. But its kinda a boring place and you need to be a bit careful about the neighborhood you choose.

Another nice area is Alhambra, particularly around Main Street in their psuedo downtown. Mostly an asian neighborhood.

The closest very nice area...clean, moderately upscale, and with a nightlife....is Pasadena near Old Town. Expect an hour drive to Commerce in rush hour. Expect a 35 minute drive normally due to the lack of nearby freeways. Actually, if you are in old town, taking the 110 down to the 5 and then to Commerce in the middle of the night is probably only a 15 minute drive, but I'd think it would be rare that you could do that.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Only reason I havent moved up is my relativly low bankroll and fear of variance.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really need to get these under control before you start playing full time for a living. The games in L.A. are great but are wild and you will experience a ton of variance. If you are beating the online games for that winrate, you will crush the mid limit games in L.A. I live in Vegas and can find a great 30/60 game at the Bellagio any day of the week. However, from my limited experience, the games at the commerce are much better. Good luck to you.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

This poster has caught the clue train. If you don't like variance, you don't have any business at Commerce. The maniacs in these games will roll right over you. You must work on the bankroll/variance issues first.

As long as I'm posting, I'll add my tiny note of negativity. Los Angeles is expensive and ugly. I don't know when I've seen a less attractive large city. So I just don't see it. If you're stressed by variance, and then you're getting hit by the huge rental/mortage prices, I don't see why it would encourage the average person to do anything but eat the nearest gun.

The poker rate at Commerce just isn't that bad, especially if you can get a buddy to share with you, and you wouldn't need a car. Just play until you're sick of the live crap and then you can pick up and go and in the end it would cost you less than renting for a few months in my humble opinion. So I vote with the guy who says, just live at the Commerce.



[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Only reason I havent moved up is my relativly low bankroll and fear of variance.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really need to get these under control before you start playing full time for a living. The games in L.A. are great but are wild and you will experience a ton of variance. If you are beating the online games for that winrate, you will crush the mid limit games in L.A. I live in Vegas and can find a great 30/60 game at the Bellagio any day of the week. However, from my limited experience, the games at the commerce are much better. Good luck to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

If you move to LA can you please tell me what is good to eat at Commerce. I pretty much hate everything I have ever had there and basically try to not eat when I'm there now. I can't stand even the old faithful fruit plates because it's like they microwave the [censored] fruit or something. Canteloupe is somewhat edible. The bananas are nuclear powered, the watermelon is orange half the time. Everything else is just plain awful.

BTW other people replying, op plays online, it's not like he has never seen an aggressive game before. Unless he spends a lot of money he is likely very rolled for whatever games he would play there.

If I was good at poker or had the work ethic to put in hours online like I can live then I would do that but I don't so I have to play live. I guess you might love it but you might hate it as well. I suppose the only way to find out is to try. If you just live at Commerce I'm sure there is some way to get some sort of tax break on it if you are filing as a pro? I'm sure other people know better than me about this sort of thing.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you move to LA can you please tell me what is good to eat at Commerce. I pretty much hate everything I have ever had there and basically try to not eat when I'm there now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the kabobs are pretty decent.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

There's a fried Korean flat fish that's really good. Also there's an Asian duck with a lot of bones in it, I think Chinese, that's really tasty. I agree that California fruit is often surprisingly commercial and bad, and they have all those huge watery tasteless fresh fruits in abundance at Commerce. (Sorry to those who like it, whose numbers are apparently legion.)

Yes, you have to file as a pro to deduct food/hotel expenses. However, if you rented an apartment or bought a house, you couldn't deduct the expenses at all, except for a dedicated home office area, pro or no pro. So that's another good argument for just staying at Commerce rather than buying or renting a condo. Taxes.

If you are a Priority Club member and stay there so many days in a year, then you are supposed to get suite upgrades at the Crowne Plazas and Intercontinentals that have them, but I haven't yet tried this at Commerce. I bet someone else has though. Keep it bumped and maybe they'll tell us what the suites are like. You don't have to get all your Priority Club points at Commerce of course. The poker rate defiitely qualifies for accumulating points, but boy it takes awhile to get enough for a free night compared to some programs. I am leaving the country soon and won't be able to get in enough points this year to find out for myself.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

You guys are wrong. This guy plays 5-10 and 10-20 6-max on the internet. He may fear variance but he's already experienced a heavy dose, much more so than he's going to suffer at any live poker room given that his edge is going to be so much bigger.

-Michael

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Right... Its all relative.

I fear high stakes limit 6-max online variance..
Im not afraid of any and all variance in general.

Howmany, I really liked the atlantic salmon when I went.
I had atlantic salmon, steamed broccoli , yellow rice + fruit plate frequently for dinner and loved it.

Fruit plate wasnt amazing, but id gladly take it for free compared to like 15$ for a smaller plate at the wynn.

Thanks again for the thoughts guys, I think its pretty likely ill stay at LA for at least 2-3 months.. Probabily happen in 3-6 months. Craigslist looks promising

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right... Its all relative.

I fear high stakes limit 6-max online variance..
Im not afraid of any and all variance in general.

Howmany, I really liked the atlantic salmon when I went.
I had atlantic salmon, steamed broccoli , yellow rice + fruit plate frequently for dinner and loved it.

Fruit plate wasnt amazing, but id gladly take it for free compared to like 15$ for a smaller plate at the wynn.

Thanks again for the thoughts guys, I think its pretty likely ill stay at LA for at least 2-3 months.. Probabily happen in 3-6 months. Craigslist looks promising

[/ QUOTE ]

Heis,

dont listen to these nits telling you about variance at the Commerce. The 20/40 plays like a 2/4 online game. If you come from a online 6max background you are totally used to the swing. The biggest adjustment will be just getting bored out of your mind for all the sitting and waiting on a hand. I would suggest playing late night where there are more sh games, though Commerce fish are notorious about not wanting to play sh. The 40 is a bit more aggressive, but plays like 3/6 online.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Only reason I havent moved up is my relativly low bankroll and fear of variance.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really need to get these under control before you start playing full time for a living. The games in L.A. are great but are wild and you will experience a ton of variance. If you are beating the online games for that winrate, you will crush the mid limit games in L.A. I live in Vegas and can find a great 30/60 game at the Bellagio any day of the week. However, from my limited experience, the games at the commerce are much better. Good luck to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, Heisenb3rg has nothing to worry about. He has already seen higher variance swings than most live players will see in their whole life, and he is still a winner. Bankroll management is relitive because he was talking about moving up online, he has enough of a roll for Commerce midlimit + games. Heisenb3rg is an excellent player trying something new... he isnt a home town hero.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Then if he wasn't worried about limited bankroll/variance, he shouldn't have said in the OP that he was. Terribly, terribly rude to give wrong information and then to yell at other people (or have his buddies yell) for giving answers based on his own post. Next time, if someone has a question, I suggest that they give accurate information instead of expecting us to read his mind over the fabulous interweb. It's just the polite thing to do.

He said and I quote: Only reason I havent moved up is my relativly low bankroll and fear of variance.


We have to respond on that basis. If you don't like a targeted answer, frame your questions better. Jeebus.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then if he wasn't worried about limited bankroll/variance, he shouldn't have said in the OP that he was. Terribly, terribly rude to give wrong information and then to yell at other people (or have his buddies yell) for giving answers based on his own post. Next time, if someone has a question, I suggest that they give accurate information instead of expecting us to read his mind over the fabulous interweb. It's just the polite thing to do.

He said and I quote: Only reason I havent moved up is my relativly low bankroll and fear of variance.


We have to respond on that basis. If you don't like a targeted answer, frame your questions better. Jeebus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not his fault you B&M nits can't do math:
[ QUOTE ]

multitable 5/10-15/30 stars 6-max online for a living..
I have obtained a healthy winrate at these games just under 2BB/100 over 150k hands for the time ive been pro, so I have the tools to beat moderatly tough limit games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you move to LA can you please tell me what is good to eat at Commerce. I pretty much hate everything I have ever had there and basically try to not eat when I'm there now. I can't stand even the old faithful fruit plates because it's like they microwave the [censored] fruit or something. Canteloupe is somewhat edible. The bananas are nuclear powered, the watermelon is orange half the time. Everything else is just plain awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Terribly, terribly rude to give wrong information and then to yell at other people (or have his buddies yell) for giving answers based on his own post.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Your paranoid. This is not a conspiracy. People are chiming in to give him real good advice and discounting the bad advice given - those "buddies" as you call them are all qualified to advise because most of them are acknowledged to be very good players as well who are active in the strategy forums here which gives them more credibility.

2) The ones who gave him good advice know the OP is a very well known player, he is considered by some to be one of the best players in the short handed mid-limit games online and one of 2+2's best limit posters.

3) Relax.... dont take things so personally. Everyone else knew exactly what the OP was asking for, instead of blaming everyone else, try looking within.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

Good Grief,

I suppose you took offense to my comments. I apologize. It was mostly a tongue-in-cheek response more directed at the nitty culture in B&M as well as the idea that the Commerce mid-limits are somehow wilder than every other live game. I think your suggestions are very worthwhile for someone with less experience and and new to professional poker in general and didnt mean my response as a slight on your advice.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

goodgrief,

don't worry about it. TT's posts put me on tilt as well

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do like your approach of mixing b&r and online.

[/ QUOTE ]

best of luck....enjoy LA and post TR's

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

How are the 100-200/ 200-400 games on the weekend?
How many and do they have some fish?

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
How are the 100-200/ 200-400 games on the weekend?
How many and do they have some fish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish = wealthy LA locals. They exist, good game selection is important.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

(EXTREMELY EXTREMELY LONG)

The following is probably a bunch of unnecessary rambling from no sleep, but hopefully you can take one or things from it. To be honest, I don't know what you're looking for but this is worthwhile advice for anyone that is doing exactly what you're doing. I don't know what is useful and what isn't so I just decided to include it all, so take it FWIW.


I just played $40/80 professionally (60+ hours a week) at the Commerce for the month of August and part of September, and from my experience I did very well in the game. If anyone played there regularly, I was the Michigan student who sat with an average of $4k in chips.

What I love about the game is that bills play, so often I would have 2-3k in $100 bills or white ($100 chips). Often times i'd have half the table playing cash (people buy in notoriously short in that game, and if things were going right they'll keep reloading $500-$1000 in cash which is gone in just a few hands). Here's an illustration: during my time there my edge was so big that many times I would be up a significant amount (2-4k) a majority of time after playing my usual 8-12 hours. After that much time, many of the players are the same, and are majorly stuck since most of them suck. Many players have deep pockets and play much longer sessions than what I am used to people playing where i'm from (typically 6-8 hours and sometimes more).

Hopefully if i'm up a decent amount, I have 1/4 of the chips on the table and had a lot of the players playing short-stacked with like $400 in $10 chips and maybe a few stray $100 blls/chips that I have been putting in play over the course of the session. What's my point? Playing cash/big chips which is extremely unconventional, but it makes you look like an action player and from my experience bad to mediocre players play MUCH MUCH worse when half their stack is cash/$100 chips than when they have stacks of chips in front of them. Many times I was able to get half the table playing with these types of chip stacks, since over time the pots I win I don't put the chips back in play and when they win from me they're getting these large denomination bills/chips. How is this possible? Once you get the table going, they totally forget the chip runner exists. If things go right, half the people that would have bought chips originally just stick a wad of bills on the table. And believe me, they almost always lose it quick. Usually what happens is if they rebuy or have $500-$1000, the next hand they play they'll put 3-4 bills in, and this is enough to make typical players chase a decent amount more than when they're playing with brightly colored wagering discs. On good sessions when I had decent control over the table, I was able to set a tempo of increased fishy gambling but also truly intimidated players. Basically MORE LOOSE AND PASSIVE. This equals higher expectation AND lower variance which is the optimal result for all poker players. NOW i'm not trying to revolutionize the poker world or anything, it works for me and my style. In fact, i've never seen a player buy in on average the number of BB's nor have I ever seen someone use $100 chips or bills to raise and bet with on a regular basis in a limit game.

This may sound like a bunch of BS or something that is unheard of, but believe me, it works like a charm for me. It is just a quarter of my gameplan to hijack a table. Based on your experience, it sounds like you have the potential to become one of the best players in the $40/80 game if you happen to bring certain other qualities to the table in addition to expert play. Believe me, there are a slew of online players that although play great, would just be a typical ABC 2+2 player that I could run over or put on tilt so he plays a little more like the fish. I think it takes a lot of other things in addition to great play (e.g. appearance, sense of humour, table demeanor, how you dress, being able to talk in the middle of hands, putting the table on tilt if you go on a small upswing, READING your opponent through betting patterns AND tells, and having the fish give you a ton of action even though you don't deserve it. The goal is to take control of the table every session. If it doesn't happen, you'll (hopefully) get better at it. All the big winners in the game (and other loose big fishy games) have mastered these skills and more, which just cannot be learned online.

I don't think this is nearly as easy at a slightly higher limit, say $60/120. The opponents are MUCH tougher on average, and not only is it harder to manipulatate them the better players are constantly trying to manipulate you. Why would you want to deal with check-raises, constant resteals, optimal bluffing frequencies, and other tricky plays? I honestly had enough of that in $10/20 6-max. But actually I doubt the prevalence of these moves is as high as I think. I think it's just a bunch of decent players who figured out that playing extremely tight and coming in agressively will win the money. But it leads to sort of a rockfest IMO, and we all know the money is made from the bad players. In fact, one thing I love about live poker is the games are much looser, the players are less agressive and knowledgable, and the variance ridiculously lower than multiple tables summing to similar stakes. A strange phenomenon at The Commerce I find there is that players are EITHER $60/120 or $40/80. I saw very few players switch between the two, and for many of the $60 players I think it was a pride thing to stay at $60. That's because many decent (but not expert) players get grinded down at $60 but are either unable to beat the $40 since it's a just a "loose, no fold'em" game or they actually suffer higher variance at $40/80 since the play is looser, a little faster, and a little unpredictable. This is one of the best things about MLHE at The Commerce! These tight players who should otherwise be beating the donkey fish for all their money find the $60 and stay there. Most of these players do not even play $40 while they're waiting for an often times "mile long" list at $60. These people would be better off playing $40/80, or at least play in an uber live $60/120 game like the one at Casino Arizona. I almost guarantee that my winrate over 600 hours was higher than anyone at $60/120 and probably $40/80. All this with MUCH less variance to boot. I'm pretty confident that I wasn't just getting lucky either, as i've played over a million hands (about 70% online) and I can tell when i'm getting lucky and when i'm playing good. The simple fact of the matter is, if you know what you're doing I believe your win rate should converge quickly IF you're a good player. It still boggles my mind how these tigher players at $60 complain about not being able to get anyone to lay down a hand or get anyone out and why they don't figure out how to beat one of the best limit games (risk-return, and availability) in the country.

In fact if you think the above sounds a little silly, then fine. IT probably WON'T work for you. I think you need to have a specific style of game, appearance, the ability to manipulate opponents through tricky plays, reverse tells, degenerate gambler-like chatter, etc. Every live player plays significantly different, even more different than online. There will be no VPIP/PFR/AGR stats but rather characters and personalaties. Your goal is to get inside that person's head, figure out his weaknesses, his strengths, his motivations, figure out what makes him tick. With a lot of experience, I think a great player will be eventually be able to do this as effortlessly as Poker Tracker imports hands. With this, comes the real fun. I hate to repeat this again but I truly thing it extremely important: the ability to manipulate and confuse your opponents (all the way from fish, to mediocre players, to great players) is sign of expert LIVE play. Anyone with enough talent, time, patience, and discipline could learn how to play a 28/20/2 game online, but being able to keep your opponents totally clueless (espeically after 10+ sessions with the same people) is the difference between your average .75 BB/hr 2+2 live player and someone who is beating it for 2 BB/hr.

What happens from here? Here's one unobvious point: I think the size of your chip stack becomes important as the stakes increase. How much you buy in for should increase as the stakes increase: I've always liked using $10/20 = $1000, $20/40 = $2000, $30/60 = $3000, $40/80 = $4500, etc. These figures may sound absolutely ridiculous amount to buy in for but like I said, few live players (even great ones) realize the significance of the effect it can have on the game:

1. You look like an action player (especially if you throw in the occassional back-raise or UTG raise with a hand like 98s.

2. You look like a (lucky) winning player. Often time new players will sit at the table and figure you're up a bunch, and this will encourage them to keep playing against you, regardless of how stuck they are. You'll be suprised how many fish will stick around and play when they should definately leave the game, all for the perception that they could hit you up for a quick $3k.

3. Eventually the regulars will see you as "unbreakable." That is they will have the perception to be able to win money or make you go bust regardless of how many hours they play with you or how well they play against you. At this point you've owned them (especially after you've been manipulating them with tricky plays during previous sessions). They will play more passively against you and make many more mistakes than they would previously, and will often start misplaying many streets where they would have previously played correctly (or to the best of their ability)

4. If you're new to live poker, especially at stakes as big as $40/80+, you may be suspectible to tilt. For me, having a lot of chips makes me play optimally since I have trained myself to never feel stuck. Even when i'm down, there's no need to win any chips quickly because after all, you're just grinding it out.


Believe it or not, the fish don't find big chips and $100 bills in play annoying, they LOVE it. It toally makes me look like a degenerate player even though i'm relatively tight. I mean if you sat at a $40/80 game and saw some unknown guy with $1000 in $10 chips, and $3000 in $100 chips or $100 bills, would you put this guy as a tight, tricky, expert player? Hell no! Typical players are dying to get in the pot for this person, no matter how strong the betting, how tight they're playing, etc. It also SIGNIFICANTLY speeds up the game since most of the time the bet is at least $80, and players make their own change from the pot. You won't believe how much time is wasted when people splash a bunch of $10 chips when it is $80 or $160 to go and how long the dealers sometimes take to count the betting down.

Over the last year i've played quite a bit of $40/80 and $60/120 at Casino Arizona (probably the 2nd best place to play limit behind The Commerce) i've tightened up my game signicantly and play even more agressively after the flop. People underestimate the value of playing extremely tight. Whether or not you want to appear loose is a matter of skill and preference. Personally I love having either a tight or loose image because I can properly exploit my opponents' current perception of my play, by making a few moves here or changing gear appropriately. The faster you can change gears, quite simply the better player you are. It is a skill that must be used carefully, as many people dump chips unecessarily by advertising too much. In fact, although I make a very large number of moves relative to my opponents, I still make a very small number of moves of what I'm capable of. Because the goal in this type of game is to should be to value bet relentlessly, not outplay someone. I am able to sucessfully play much faster than even a TAG or LAG since I am able to make this up by purely having a better hand and having superior postflop abilities. IMO full ring requires a slightly different strategy than $10/20 6-max, in a fishy game like this you're best (I believe) to play extremely tight, with enough moves to make them forget about that. And when I say moves, I don't mean trying to raise or reraise the turn as a semi-bluff or with air since these guys don't bluff enough or fold enough. So this play is not only worthless it's more than worthless in this game. And quite honestly, i've never found a game (online and live) where a lot of the stuff in Theory of Poker is even worth trying. You're better off popping it in the BB with 88 or 76s, or even add a limp-reraising component to your game. Ever try limp-reraising UTG with 88 10% of the time, JTs 25% of the time, AA 90% of the time, and AKs 40%? It's this type of play which will maximize your return in that game is because what will end up happening a lot of the time is you get 7 people trapped for 3-4 bets with AKs, 88, JTs, or AA. What more could you ask for? Now that most the players are "in to deep," they'll get overinvolved like they always do and you may win a $2000 pot if flop lucky. Don't be afraid to play those multi-way hands a little crazy, believe me, the tighter at the players will definately lose respect for you pretty quickly after a couple of these plays.

Like I said before, you'll be surprised what capping the flop with strong draws and back-rasing with JTs will do for your image. You'll become very difficult to read, and the live ones will pay you off despite being fairly to extremely tight (most I find equate aggressive with loose).

One difference between live and online is the tilt factor. Fortunately I am very good at manipulating my opponents and had very good control over most of the player base (estimate 100+ players) within a few weeks. There are always 5-6 tables going, with surprisingly very few tough players (a lot of the players capable of crushing the $40 will fruitlessly wait or play in the significantly tougher $60 game. In fact, one of the reasons i'd rarely lose is
because unlike some other games, the $40/80 Commerce game is one of the best risk-return games in the country. How does $120/hr sound with little variance? Forget 200 BB downswings. It is all possible due to the complete absence of winning players! During my ~400 hours of play there, I estimate that that less than 10% of the $40/80 are winning players. Believe me, these fish didn't have to grind it up from $0.50/1 like a lot of had to. Remember, it's LA and $100 isn't worth beans there. I'm sure $100 is still something in Canada, but in a city with $4000+ mortgage payments, you better believe they think they're playing $5/10 or something.

I'd advise playing against the $60 game there, if you're going to move up from $40 go ahead and play $100.

Now if you made it this far you may think that I am just understimating the toughness of online play and the skills you develop playing. This is definately not true. I think that playing multiple tables in tough, fast, middle limit online SH games develops your postflop and preflop skills to the next level that often times is unmatched by some of the better of the live players. But I will say it's like apples and oranges, they are both sort of a different beast.

My history is similar to yours, I used to multi-table $10/20 6-max on Party in it's heyday so you'd definately be prepared for the swings. Live poker is much different from online poker. It's not as simple as just playing ABC (middle-limit TAG) poker, there's a lot more psychology and for expert players, manipulation. Table image, emotional control, and changing gears is not only more important, but it is crucial for beating the mid-high limit games for 1.5+ BB/hr. And one more important note: don't underestimate the difference between live and online play. It took me a year or two to fully adjust from playing exclusively short-handed tough games to full live ring games. I'm maybe overestimating the transition since I'm used to the loose/wild/fast $20/40 and $30/60 limit omaha and HE round-by-round homes games in Detroit which often times would play bigger and faster than the Commerce $40/80. Like someone said above, I would give it three months and give it a go. What I recommend AGAINST is playing $100/200 when you initially make the swtich over, which I think it would be a mistake for most online (even expert) players.

Hopefully this was of some help.

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

...tessarji's advice is "spot on."

Re: Moving to LA to play pro @ commerce? (long)
 

For pyroponic's comment "During my 400 hours of play there, I estimate that that less than 10% of the $40/80 are winning players" as above, I agree with his opnion. Only one player out of ten players in single table shall be the long-run winner. Do you have any objection for that?

Why only 10% of winning players? Due to the huge accumulated rake, most cash in 90% pocket SHALL goes to the drop hole eventually. Any objection to this proposition? If any, please comment.