is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

Been playing poker for a couple years. Just like everyone else I think Im good. I have won a couple tourneys and placed in lots. I am a U.S. player so have been forced to play at lower stakes to insure my bankroll stays.

I remember a year ago I would have decent runs where I would leave w/ 3x, 4x, 5x etc my buy in for a NL session. Now big winning sessions seem to come way too far apart and am left settling w/ double buy in and being happy about it.

Like many others I have dreams of having the big roll to live off of. Is everyone just too good or am i just still coming into my own?

There was a post on how long it would take to get from $50 to $10,000 and a few people responded saying maybe 4 to 6 weeks... 2 to 4 weeks...???????????????? WHAT? am i that far behind?

Also, if anyone has a program to rate myself/stats... i am curious to see how i rate. BigErf FullTilt

thanks guys

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

Don't take this the wrong way but maybe you are not as good as you think and your variance is kicking in.

As well, some beginning players can have great success for a while because their wild, unpredictable play can be hard to beat, especially if they get lucky a lot.

If you want to play poker as a primary or secondary source of income, then from the words of your post I would suggest that you are not on the right track.

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

i definetlt dont mind constructive criticism but i feel i may have sent the wrong impression.

i quess i may have come across as a wild player, which im not. my default play is tight aggressive but have enough experience to play any style. i have just noticed lately that it seems the tables are full of T.A. players which as we all know is not optimum for making money.

if "pantsonfire" or anyone else could respond i would like to know what i said to give the impression that i am not on the right track so i can analyze this and work on that area of my game. thanks

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

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Also, if anyone has a program to rate myself/stats... i am curious to see how i rate. BigErf FullTilt


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You say you're good, but how do you know that if you have no stats ? My advice would be to purchase Poker Tracker and find out for yourself what your true winrate/ROI is.

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

There is definately a cyclic process occuring. Before the poker boom most players were very solid. Since Moneymaker there has been a flood of players. Some good but many bad. In 2004/2005 almost every game was mostly fish. The bad players lose there money and either improve or quit. There continues a steady stream of new bad players but they are now being outnumbers by many good players of variable skill levels. Therefore, when you sit at a game now you will likely find mostly good players and if lucky a few fish. As for the ablity to make a living, it depends on how good you are. If not very good you may now have to table hop more to find an easier game.

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

Ive only been playing for about 6 months about an hour daily and I am amazed how people say they move up really fast...I started playing on .02/.05 on party with a $75.00 dollar roll and now Im playing at .05/.10 with a mid-300 dollar roll, struggling to move up to the next level via a sloow grind.
Everyone says how these players are easy, yes they make alot mistakes like limping etc, however, its not quick easy money. When a big fish comes to the table everyone tightens up and plays the same game it seems...when he leaves, everyone else leaves too. Another problem is all the small stacks...3/5th of the table all play <50bb its push or fold with them on the flop.

By the way,
http://www.poker-edge.com/whoami.php?name=BigErf

Heres your stats on the poker edge site it says you are a slag which I think is pretty good...

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

Poker will always be a profitable game.

As a simple analogy , students at school have all the information readily available to them and yet so many people fail . With the conception of the internet, we all have the ability to get straight A's , or the ability to pass our SAT's but it's not that easy . Some people take the easy route and become content with just being a good student but not necessarily a great student . Just like in poker , there are those who strive to be the best and those who play recreationally who are just happy to be in the game .

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

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Poker will always be a profitable game.

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How many people do you know can even play 1/2 limit PROFITABLE in B&M? I don't think the best in the world are playing there but lets take another look...

A good player here has an advantage of 3% yet...

You are paying at LEAST half a big blind tip on every silly pot, not to mention 10% of the full-pot.

GFL...


I just want to point out that, not all games are equal, and hence, not all are profitable, no matter how good you are.

The low stakes, high-ante stud games are unbeatable, as the house just takes too much out of your BR.

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

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i definetlt dont mind constructive criticism but i feel i may have sent the wrong impression.

i quess i may have come across as a wild player, which im not. my default play is tight aggressive but have enough experience to play any style. i have just noticed lately that it seems the tables are full of T.A. players which as we all know is not optimum for making money.

if "pantsonfire" or anyone else could respond i would like to know what i said to give the impression that i am not on the right track so i can analyze this and work on that area of my game. thanks

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I would say you might be overestimating the number of TAGs. It is rare that a table will be full of them. Perhaps you need to get some tracking software or pay closer attention to the style of your opponents. Don't butt heads with other TAGs. Pick on loose and passive players as well as LAGs.

Yes, I suppose in general players are getting better. But you can keep up by selecting the best games and targeting the weakest players. You can even go against other TAGs if you get a good line on how they play certain situations. TAGs can fold so if you can spot the narrow windows where they are ready to give up, drive a wedge in there.

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

"only been playing for about 6 months about an hour daily and I am amazed how people say they move up really fast..."

There was a window. It's closed. It's still possible; just harder. I went up/ got cocky/ lost. It's harder.

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

The answer to your question is no. You just have to find the games now. There will always be fish who play poker no matter what.

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

This will never happen. Only 5-10% (Im being way generous here) will take the time to become students of the game. The 90-95% remaining will always have leaks. Maybe the games are not totally filled with stone cold suckers but there are still plenty of them at the table with varying degrees of flaws in thier games. Find a vilians mistake(s) and give him a chance to repeat them as often as possible.

Dave

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

BigErf 101 $1.31 $9 7% $132

looks like mostly mtt's so this isnt a bad line but its a small sample size. Just keep grinding away and getting better.

Competition
 

The competition has definately gotten better....

Re: Competition
 

The level of play overall is far better now. The learning materials that have appeared in the last decade are light years ahead of what there was.

Still, there are always beginners, and most players do not study the game seriously. A lot of people even go through the motions of buying a couple books, and barely read them.

Re: Competition
 

Did people think the influx of fresh meat was never gonna end? It takes 21 years for a player to come of age, 1 or 2 years to ruin him. Players get better, whether they study or not. They develop a feel for the game. They start to get comfortable. They realize it's old hat. One day they wake up and they may be weak/tight or a maniac, but they're no longer really a fish. They've paid their dues and sure, you can take them for some money still. But not like you could in the old days.

Re: Competition
 

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Did people think the influx of fresh meat was never gonna end? It takes 21 years for a player to come of age, 1 or 2 years to ruin him. Players get better, whether they study or not. They develop a feel for the game. They start to get comfortable. They realize it's old hat. One day they wake up and they may be weak/tight or a maniac, but they're no longer really a fish. They've paid their dues and sure, you can take them for some money still. But not like you could in the old days.

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But there is always "fresh meat" coming through. There is always new players ready to donate for the pure enjoyment.

Yes, there are perhaps a larger pool of better players because of the amount of study material out there. But the best players will still be profitable.

What has changeed perhaps is that the mere recreational player (the fish) in the USA deem it too much aggro to put their money on a site now. However, the more serious USA players make a point of finding a way round this.

I don't go with this notion that there were a greater % of USA fish, it is just the fish element no longer bother.

Re: Competition
 

The Fish are alive and well and playing, but may be they have realised that NLHE and FLHE are games with too much aggro in them.

In other games like 7Stud and FLO8, they get more play for their $. Got to low stakes non-HE tables and you'll find the noble Fish swimming in schools of loose-passive tables.

Re: Competition
 

I can definitely agree that 7CS gives them a lot more run for their money. Not just because their stack can stay intact after a large screwup, but the very high variance in this game can even keep an idiot afloat much longer than seems conceivable.

The high-ante games (which most sites force), only is to their gain.

Re: Competition
 

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But there is always "fresh meat" coming through. There is always new players ready to donate for the pure enjoyment.

Yes, there are perhaps a larger pool of better players because of the amount of study material out there. But the best players will still be profitable.


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The fish often either give up the game or play tighter.
The successful players never quit. Also it takes much
more than one fish to support the each winner.

Re: Competition
 

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Did people think the influx of fresh meat was never gonna end? It takes 21 years for a player to come of age, 1 or 2 years to ruin him. Players get better, whether they study or not. They develop a feel for the game. They start to get comfortable. They realize it's old hat. One day they wake up and they may be weak/tight or a maniac, but they're no longer really a fish. They've paid their dues and sure, you can take them for some money still. But not like you could in the old days.

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But there is always "fresh meat" coming through. There is always new players ready to donate for the pure enjoyment.

Yes, there are perhaps a larger pool of better players because of the amount of study material out there. But the best players will still be profitable.

What has changeed perhaps is that the mere recreational player (the fish) in the USA deem it too much aggro to put their money on a site now. However, the more serious USA players make a point of finding a way round this.

I don't go with this notion that there were a greater % of USA fish, it is just the fish element no longer bother.

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the U.S sites are DEFINITELY tougher than the mostly euro, non-U.S sites. The difference in aggression is amazing.

Re: Competition
 

Looking through this thread.

If you are a winning player, ask yourself what do you do to encourage them to pay for their entertainment?

There's far too many idiots, berating them, hurling personal abuse, and generally hammering the Fish with constant aggression.

Fish, play to make hands, have a 'nice' sociable game and obviously they are not playing to try to win money. Getting called idiots and loser's is unlikely to attract and build up the customer base.

Are most net tables going to appeal to the play for fun type of personality?

They want a bit of humour and some fun, not a load of silent Rocks, TAGs and LAGs beating up on them the whole time, with no grace, humour or humility.

So support your local Fish! Before they become an entirely endangered species. Now they have far more good examples to copy, than in old days when being one of the crowd meant playing loose-passively.

Re: Competition
 

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They want a bit of humour and some fun, not a load of silent Rocks, TAGs and LAGs beating up on them the whole time, with no grace, humour or humility.

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This is a very good point. Trouble is, when you are multi-tabling, having some decent banter and a joke can be a little tricky.

Also, we are probably all guilty of berating someone for a dreadful play when they suck out on you. I think we tend to think that all players are seasoned poker players that should know better. Many are just playing the game for pure enjoyment and I very rarely "tap the tank". A simple "well played" is the extent of my frustration when they suck out. Regular players know you are being sarcastic whilst the real fish and very new players think you are being nice. A bit of a win/win. If I am really chilled out I even manage a "good luck guys" and leave gracefully after suck outs.

Re: Competition
 

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They want a bit of humour and some fun, not a load of silent Rocks, TAGs and LAGs beating up on them the whole time, with no grace, humour or humility.

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This is a very good point. Trouble is, when you are multi-tabling, having some decent banter and a joke can be a little tricky.


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Very true, but sometimes a little goes a long way. Perhaps 1 table less and cultivating the clientelle, might be as profitable?

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Also, we are probably all guilty of berating someone for a dreadful play when they suck out on you. I think we tend to think that all players are seasoned poker players that should know better.

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We should know better than to do that, and when some idiot is berating a Fish, perhaps a few mins of support, and subtle remarks like "you whine cos you lost the pot" and "who won a pot by folding" could keep that Fish sweet and at your table.

En masse, do Winning players, want to keep losers playing poker? Are we going to realise that other players have fun for other reasons than winning.

A losing player, might enjoy it as relaxation, alternative to TV, or to gamble it up. Educating them to their failings and taking personal shots, just will drive them from your table.

Re: Competition
 

I don't know what kind of crazy games there used to be in the "crazy days" - I wasn't present then. However, the stakes I play in at pokerstars ($0.25/.50 NL) are PACKED WITH FISH. Sure every table has 1-3 of those (a bit annoying) multitabling characters, but -those aside- there's plenty of money to be made with proper solid play. I believe it's much tougher just a ladder or two higher.

"Ordinary" people make a deposit of about $50, spend it (see if they get "lucky"), wait a few days and have another $50 go sometime later. Even with a high salary a working man with a family often doesn't want to invest much more than that on staight "gambling".

Re: Competition
 

poker is Darwinism in action

Re: Competition
 

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I don't know what kind of crazy games there used to be in the "crazy days" - I wasn't present then. However, the stakes I play in at pokerstars ($0.25/.50 NL) are PACKED WITH FISH. Sure every table has 1-3 of those (a bit annoying) multitabling characters, but -those aside- there's plenty of money to be made with proper solid play. I believe it's much tougher just a ladder or two higher.

"Ordinary" people make a deposit of about $50, spend it (see if they get "lucky"), wait a few days and have another $50 go sometime later. Even with a high salary a working man with a family often doesn't want to invest much more than that on staight "gambling".

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I stay playing a live game for some of the reasons I have read in this thread. I quote here because I totally agree with you. My only disagreement is the fact that there is people only willing to play for $50. Man trust me there are people playing for $50 or more a day not just every couple and they aren't the ones with a high salary they are the ones with no money putting stuff in hock just to play. The addicts. It is actually kind of sad. But I still take there money. I have to eat.

Re: Competition
 

I've been playing online for 3-4 years. The standard is soooooooooooooooo much better now it's not even funny. If I knew 3 years ago what I know about poker not it honestly would be a license to print money! I recall those old crypto table when someone that played even two tables at once was a 'mad man' and where 3-bets preflop were unheard of and you could regularly push AI on a river for 2-3x a PSB and expect to be called by a worryingly wide range of hands. It was just crazy what people would play, chase, and pay off with. Then there was draws! Sooooooooo many players would call full PSB on the flop and turn with just a weak flush draw and if they hit they'd bet like 20% of the pot fearing you'd fold! They'd not do this once or twice - they'd do it with EVERY flush draw. People were just bloody clueless - the only problem is that relatively speaking so was I back then; better than them but not as good as I am now. My style these days would simply destroy the tables back in the good old days. Unfortunately I have to work really hard to make money these days - even the fish aren't as daft nowadays. They make exploitable mistakes for sure but they don't make the absolute criminal mistakes of yesteryear.

BTW, I'd say that if you allow me to open up 5 random tables of Full Tilt NL$200 I could within 15 minutes of watching find 3-4 players that would murder the highest stakes games (probably NL$1000 or NL$2000) from 3-4 years ago. There are a lot of players playing very solid 22/18/4 style games that understand all the basic, intermediate and expert level concepts.

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ive only been playing for about 6 months about an hour daily and I am amazed how people say they move up really fast...I started playing on .02/.05 on party with a $75.00 dollar roll and now Im playing at .05/.10 with a mid-300 dollar roll, struggling to move up to the next level via a sloow grind.
Everyone says how these players are easy, yes they make alot mistakes like limping etc, however, its not quick easy money. When a big fish comes to the table everyone tightens up and plays the same game it seems...when he leaves, everyone else leaves too. Another problem is all the small stacks...3/5th of the table all play <50bb its push or fold with them on the flop.

By the way,
http://www.poker-edge.com/whoami.php?name=BigErf

Heres your stats on the poker edge site it says you are a slag which I think is pretty good...

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What's the skinny on this Poker-Edge? This sounds very unethical:

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Join Poker-Edge Today to Hide Your Stats From Other Players and get complete stats on 100+ sites!

[/ QUOTE ]


So we have to pay them "protection money" to keep our stats secret? Is this kind of extortion legal?

Re: is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?
 

The short answer to your question is no.

The long answer is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Truthfully, you do have to look a little bit. However, you seem to play a mix of MTTs and SnGs, and both of these forms naturally have high amount of variance. So perhaps you should just compile more stats and find out where you really are.

Re: Competition
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looking through this thread.

If you are a winning player, ask yourself what do you do to encourage them to pay for their entertainment?

There's far too many idiots, berating them, hurling personal abuse, and generally hammering the Fish with constant aggression.

Fish, play to make hands, have a 'nice' sociable game and obviously they are not playing to try to win money. Getting called idiots and loser's is unlikely to attract and build up the customer base.

Are most net tables going to appeal to the play for fun type of personality?

They want a bit of humour and some fun, not a load of silent Rocks, TAGs and LAGs beating up on them the whole time, with no grace, humour or humility.

So support your local Fish! Before they become an entirely endangered species. Now they have far more good examples to copy, than in old days when being one of the crowd meant playing loose-passively.

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QUOTED FOR MOTHER FKING TRUTH and bumpitude
This is one of the most important posts I've ever read.

We trade them politness and a little feel-good chat in exchange for ALL THEIR MONEY. At the very very least can we please refrain from lambasting them with insults, like I see many huge idiots doing. You're ruining it for yourself and everybody.

Re: Competition
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looking through this thread.

If you are a winning player, ask yourself what do you do to encourage them to pay for their entertainment?

There's far too many idiots, berating them, hurling personal abuse, and generally hammering the Fish with constant aggression.

Fish, play to make hands, have a 'nice' sociable game and obviously they are not playing to try to win money. Getting called idiots and loser's is unlikely to attract and build up the customer base.

Are most net tables going to appeal to the play for fun type of personality?

They want a bit of humour and some fun, not a load of silent Rocks, TAGs and LAGs beating up on them the whole time, with no grace, humour or humility.

So support your local Fish! Before they become an entirely endangered species. Now they have far more good examples to copy, than in old days when being one of the crowd meant playing loose-passively.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love this post because it's 100% the truth. Way too many people are interested in improving the play of their opponents. The more you insult their poor play the more they're inclined to do something about it.