Miracles in Islam
 

A comment in another thread sent me searching for miracles in other religions. The Q'uran and Islam is loaded.
It's a younger religion and maybe that explains why they still get miracles occurring what seems like daily. Not only that but apparently the Q'uran predicted virtually all our scientific knowledge... including Schroedinger's Cat.

Impressive. They seem to have 10 clear Allah pictures for every Oreo cookie with a blurry Mary.
I'm sure christians must feel like the neglected elder sister with all that going on in Islam. That may explain their being so 'edgy' these days.

luckyme

Re: Miracles in Islam
 

Most Christians don't follow Islam so I doubt they feel left out...The bible says to focus on Christ and his teachings...

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Most Christians don't follow Islam so I doubt they feel left out...The bible says to focus on Christ and his teachings...

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But the Q'uran is based on newer miracles, rather how the New Testament fine-tuned the old testament and changed a lot of it's claims to allegory and meaningful only in the ancient days. So, we know god cleans up every so often.
Why wouldn't christians look at this active, miracle-laden religion, that recognizes the existence of jesus, as the latest draft.

Sure, the bible says focus on christ, but before christ it said to focus on moses. God keeps updating, and Islam sure seems to fit the process, every so often he sends a new messenger/teacher/prophet.

Christians point to old miracles, muslims point to newer and even current ones. The sites are amazing with color pictures of trees, clouds, fish, almost anything you can think of with a message on it.

If everyone took your attitude the new testament wouldn't have been accepted. As a theist, shouldn't a person be on the lookout for new messages? He's sent them before.

luckyme

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Most Christians don't follow Islam so I doubt they feel left out...The bible says to focus on Christ and his teachings...

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But the Q'uran is based on newer miracles, rather how the New Testament fine-tuned the old testament and changed a lot of it's claims to allegory and meaningful only in the ancient days. So, we know god cleans up every so often.
Why wouldn't christians look at this active, miracle-laden religion, that recognizes the existence of jesus, as the latest draft.

Sure, the bible says focus on christ, but before christ it said to focus on moses. God keeps updating, and Islam sure seems to fit the process, every so often he sends a new messenger/teacher/prophet.

Christians point to old miracles, muslims point to newer and even current ones. The sites are amazing with color pictures of trees, clouds, fish, almost anything you can think of with a message on it.

If everyone took your attitude the new testament wouldn't have been accepted. As a theist, shouldn't a person be on the lookout for new messages? He's sent them before.

luckyme

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This post is so backwards its comical.

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Most Christians don't follow Islam so I doubt they feel left out...The bible says to focus on Christ and his teachings...

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But the Q'uran is based on newer miracles, rather how the New Testament fine-tuned the old testament and changed a lot of it's claims to allegory and meaningful only in the ancient days. So, we know god cleans up every so often.
Why wouldn't christians look at this active, miracle-laden religion, that recognizes the existence of jesus, as the latest draft.

Sure, the bible says focus on christ, but before christ it said to focus on moses. God keeps updating, and Islam sure seems to fit the process, every so often he sends a new messenger/teacher/prophet.

Christians point to old miracles, muslims point to newer and even current ones. The sites are amazing with color pictures of trees, clouds, fish, almost anything you can think of with a message on it.

If everyone took your attitude the new testament wouldn't have been accepted. As a theist, shouldn't a person be on the lookout for new messages? He's sent them before.

luckyme

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This post is so backwards its comical.

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Do you mean the time-line is reversed or ?
People do convert to Islam from christianity and I wonder if it isn't influenced by this 'modernization of the belief' approach. Christians did convert from Judaism on the 'News' view also. So it's certainly not unique.
I haven't been a christian for quite a while so I'm not sure how I would dismiss the Islamic update claim.

luckyme

Re: Miracles in Islam
 

This thread has raised a fascinating thought that I hope does not get lost beneath a sea of stubborn vitriol.

Re: Miracles in Islam
 

totally agree luckyme... islam is christianity 2.0

anyone see that discovery channel show where like muslims stabbed themselves in the head with knives or something and it like didnt hurt and then like the scientist guy tried it too and it didnt hurt him either so he converted?

it was pretty sweet.

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oh and then he poked a hole in his cheek while he was hooked up to all this equipment, and like it healed really fast.

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totally agree luckyme... islam is christianity 2.0

anyone see that discovery channel show where like muslims stabbed themselves in the head with knives or something and it like didnt hurt and then like the scientist guy tried it too and it didnt hurt him either so he converted?

it was pretty sweet.

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No, but I'm starting a list of people I want to do that to.

luckyme

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I have a book called "Muslim Saints and Mystics" which is a translation of a noted Muslim scholar. Miracles of all kinds are frequently attributed to the saints.

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I did skim read a book called "Unveiling Islam"...it was written about 3 Turkish boys who converted to Christianity...they were disowned by their family as a result of their conversion...

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At least they weren't burned at the stake for heresy!

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Why shouldn't there be claims of miracles in islam? After all it is only just another belief, like christianity, etc...

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I know of one miracle the Koran accepts: the virgin birth of Jesus.

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Wow..I didn't know that Bill...I know the Muslims see Jesus as a prophet...

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Why shouldn't there be claims of miracles in islam? After all it is only just another belief, like christianity, etc...

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Sure. I was just pointing out that Islam is wallowing in newer and current miracles ... lots with color photographs and just as the New Testament added to the Old and changed the essential message, Islam could be god's sequel again.
So, he's tossing out miracles like the last time he had a major position clarification to communicate. If I were a theist, that would be something I would seriously look into.

luckyme

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Christianity has plenty of miracles too...Its just some churches say miracles ended with the Apostles and other churches say miracles are still going on...Its a matter of theist dogma in Christianity...Try reading SuperSystem ...Doyle Brunson in My Story relates 3 miracles in his own family...

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Christianity has plenty of miracles too...Its just some churches say miracles ended with the Apostles and other churches say miracles are still going on...Its a matter of theist dogma in Christianity...Try reading SuperSystem ...Doyle Brunson in My Story relates 3 miracles in his own family...

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But it's Allah doing it, He's spreading cookie crumbs trying to get christians attention again so he can lead them to Islam. I miracle to chrisianity, 10 to islam. rinse and repeat.

luckyme

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I miracle to chrisianity, 10 to islam. rinse and repeat.

luckyme

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What is an "I miracle to chrisianity"?

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I miracle to chrisianity, 10 to islam. rinse and repeat.

luckyme

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What is an "I miracle to chrisianity"?

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cheeeesh. It's the start of a sentence, so capital one.

( I liked it better when the nuns smacked the knuckles for grammar errors ... bit of a turn on).

luckyme

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There is a fatal flaw in your comparison of Islam to Christianity luckyme...Obviously you missed the fact that Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God...and not a prophet...to go from the Son of God to a prophet is a demotion of Jesus...he is central to the Christian faith and his status is immutable...Hence there is no miracling to Islam from Christianity..your argument is both illiterate and false...miracle is not an action verb and Christians cannot demote the Son of God to a prophet...

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I miracle to chrisianity, 10 to islam. rinse and repeat.

luckyme

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What is an "I miracle to chrisianity"?

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Is it really necessary to do this every time? It drags down the discussion when it was obvious what his intended meaning was. Notice that no one flamed you for being unable to spell "charade" yesterday.

Also, how could you possibly know that his post up above is backwards if you have never read the book he is talking about and refuse to consider it?

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There is a fatal flaw in your comparison of Islam to Christianity luckyme...Obviously you missed the fact that Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God...and not a prophet...to go from the Son of God to a prophet is a demotion of Jesus...he is central to the Christian faith and his status is immutable...Hence there is no miracling to Islam from Christianity..your argument is both illiterate and false...miracle is not an action verb and Christians cannot demote the Son of God to a prophet...

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Of course they can't. Once they do that, they'd be muslims ( if that was the course they were on).
That's similar to my point that historians that believe the evidence of a miracle-working, son-of-god, ascend-to-heaven jesus must be christians.
Say this historian started out as an agnostic, and came out believing the above ... he'd be a christian, by definition.

Same process happens when a christian converts to islam ( which you seem to think doesn't happen), at some point they realize that Islam is the updated version and they DO understand jesus was actually a prophet. It's silly to think of it as a demotion, he wasn't the son of god at any time, that was a misunderstanding of a figurative portion of god's word, the same way so much of the old testament is understood now.

read twice before answering.

luckyme

Re: Miracles in Islam
 

Tpir and Brad I hope you won't dilute this discussion picking over grammatical usage and spelling errors...Luckyme is trying to assert that Christians and others should be paying attention to Muslim miracles...That is what this thread is about...

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Tpir and Brad I hope you won't dilute this discussion picking over grammatical usage and spelling errors...Luckyme is trying to assert that Christians and others should be paying attention to Muslim miracles...That is what this thread is about...

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Agreed and duly noted. It was my intention to nip it in the bud like 20 posts ago but it might end up taking 25 or 30 [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Tpir and Brad I hope you won't dilute this discussion picking over grammatical usage and spelling errors...Luckyme is trying to assert that Christians and others should be paying attention to Muslim miracles...That is what this thread is about...

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That was a quick focus point.
Overall, I'm grappling with why christians, especially those that believe that god is up and about in their lives and sends them 'messages' don't see Islam as the 2nd (3rd is you count the Moses revelations) major revision of god's guidance to mankind.
It seems to fit his past pattern of communication. Maybe he sees that christians have overread the message that the jesus story was meant to illustrate and wants to give them another major nudge along the road.

luckyme

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You obviously don't know your bible luckyme...
You said: <u>It's silly to think of it as a demotion, he wasn't the son of god at any time, that was a misunderstanding of a figurative portion of god's word, the same way so much of the old testament is understood now</u>

In Matthew 3rd chapter Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist: "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he came up out of the water. Then heaven opened, and he saw God's Spirit coming down on him like a dove. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love, and I am very pleased with him."-this from the New Century Version of the Extreme Teen Bible... Nothing figurative in this passage...

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You obviously don't know your bible luckyme...
You said: <u>It's silly to think of it as a demotion, he wasn't the son of god at any time, that was a misunderstanding of a figurative portion of god's word, the same way so much of the old testament is understood now</u>

In Matthew 3rd chapter Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist: "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he came up out of the water. Then heaven opened, and he saw God's Spirit coming down on him like a dove. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love, and I am very pleased with him."-this from the New Century Version of the Extreme Teen Bible... Nothing figurative in this passage...

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Seems figurative to me. We are all children of god? Certainly a major prophet would be considered one and be loved and pleasing to god.
All figurative passages have literal version also. There is no passage that cannot be figurative and passages that were once treated as literal are now thought of as figurative.
Christians that convert to Islam see it that way.

luckyme

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This is another error you are making luckyme...You are constructing your own reality...Christians accept God's explanation...we rely on God not on our own construction...people's constructions are too variable and fallible to be relied on...To be a Christian means to accept the bible as the word of God and accept it...there are often multiple meanings in passages because God can handle complexity...he has built flexibility in the word where it is required to adapt to changing circumstances and inflexibility where inflexibility is required...

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This is another error you are making luckyme...You are constructing your own reality...Christians accept God's explanation...we rely on God not on our own construction...people's constructions are too variable and fallible to be relied on...To be a Christian means to accept the bible as the word of God and accept it...there are often multiple meanings in passages because God can handle complexity...he has built flexibility in the word where it is required to adapt to changing circumstances and inflexibility where inflexibility is required...

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You have the misfortune of not being the only christian I know. That leaves you in the awkward position of not being able to make sweeping statements about what christians believe , you can only speak to what you believe.

If you think god is incapable of doing certain things, especially ones similar to what he's done in the past, ok. But it is just one very personal opinion. Other christians may see it in a more open-ended line of possibilities for what god may want to do and how he wants to do it.

luckyme

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When I think of Islam, I think of terrorists killing thousands of innocent people as well as themselves in the name of their religion, I think of the constant fighting going on in the Middle East, and their women covered from head to toe not allowed to show anything.

Though this is just my personal image of Islam, I'm sure many other Christians see this "image" as well and just completely write Islam off. Most probably wrote Islam off after 9/11 and the whole Jihad thing.

Though I think I'll get flamed for bringing my personal view into this discussion, it has some substance as many others probably view Islam the same as I do. I would think the Islam conversion rate would drop heavily because of this image.

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When I think of Islam, I think of terrorists killing thousands of innocent people as well as themselves in the name of their religion, I think of the constant fighting going on in the Middle East, and their women covered from head to toe not allowed to show anything.

Though this is just my personal image of Islam, I'm sure many other Christians see this "image" as well and just completely write Islam off. Most probably wrote Islam off after 9/11 and the whole Jihad thing.

Though I think I'll get flamed for bringing my personal view into this discussion, it has some substance as many others probably view Islam the same as I do. I would think the Islam conversion rate would drop heavily because of this image.


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I’m not disagreeing with your post. I’ve seen over and over in my own life just how damaging extreme Christian beliefs are, so I have no doubt that extreme Islamic beliefs are damaging.

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Converting is just the new fashion statement for the radically tolerant, and I don't think I'm kidding either.

And your views are very stereotypical and probably unhealthy. My neighbour is an muslim and she's nice and cute as they come and loves pink miniskirts more a burka it would seem, and we've been drunk together on many occasions and she has never spilled the beans on any ongoing jihads.

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Couldn't that be said of any religion yukoncpa?

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Couldn't that be said of any religion yukoncpa?

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did you read his post? you are tilting me so hard. this is what you were replying to, right?

"I’ve seen over and over in my own life just how damaging extreme Christian beliefs are, so I have no doubt that extreme Islamic beliefs are damaging."

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I’m not disagreeing with your post. I’ve seen over and over in my own life just how damaging extreme Christian beliefs are, so I have no doubt that extreme Islamic beliefs are damaging

[/ QUOTE ] Couldn't that be said of any religion yukoncpa?


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Certainly any intolerant religion such as Christianity. Buddhism, if it even is a religion, isn’t damaging to anyone.

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I’m not disagreeing with your post. I’ve seen over and over in my own life just how damaging extreme Christian beliefs are, so I have no doubt that extreme Islamic beliefs are damaging

[/ QUOTE ] Couldn't that be said of any religion yukoncpa?


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Certainly any intolerant religion such as Christianity. Buddhism, if it even is a religion, isn’t damaging to anyone.

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Just for clarification... it took me a while to figure this out myself. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism(all the Western religions) share this "damaging" aspect because they all practice a close minded philosophy believing that everyone else is wrong and they are right and will be the only ones saved. Buddhism, is a religion, but it practices acceptance of all people and beliefs and is integrated with the Zen way of life. Zen is a philosophy and Buddhism is the religion that practices it.

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why dont all christians become mormon?

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back to the original subject (splendour, just stop talking).

# 2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,

# Mark 8:12
Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation."

so if one is to believe christianity to be true, these other more "current" miracles don't mean a thing.

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You are rude dknightx...Mr. Piper did not attribute anything to Satan...