Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Midnight Cowboy, John Schlesinger, 1969.

http://www.filmreference.com/images/sjff_01_img0322.jpg



okay people, let's talk!

I've always been most impressed by the performances and by Schlesinger's willingness to let the characters be the story, rather than have some inane "plot" thrust upon them.

It's such a "60's" movie, and one that I think is the demarcation film between Old, Classic Hollywood and what would become the New Hollywood of Spielberg, Scorcese and Kubrick. In other words, Midnight Cowboy is the first film of a movement in motion pictures that became the Golden Age of the 1970s. A watershed film. And I think it's also the first mainstream, Hollywood movie that didn't shy away from the homosexuality of it's themes or it's director!

Voight and Hoffman are just incredible together, too. At it's most simple, Midnight Cowboy is a love story between Joe Buck and Ratzo Rizzo.


http://www.thecityreview.com/cellu11.jpg

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

The songwriter, I later found out, was a pretty revered treasure amongst people in the know, and missed a lot of the fame of the fantastic theme song, sung by Nilsson. Extremely evocative to me.

The whole movie was. You're right on how wonderful this movie was with giving space to the characters. The subject was so often the characters' feelings and reactions to things, not a relentless march of plot. I really like that kind of movie, and it feels much more like something I would recognize as life.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

by the way, Hoffman's famous line, "I'm walkin' here!" was an improv - the taxi in the movie is a real one! Voight always mentions this and laughs because he says he was really startled, first by the Tax and then by Hoffman, and then tried not to laugh and stay in character.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

I saw this movie 20+ years ago, when I was a young twentysomething, and back then didn't like it that much. Bits were okay and quite memorable (I still remember the whole scene where he's asking the lady with the poodle for money, and she gets 20 out of him), but that first time, it just seemed a complete mess. I did forget the whole flashback/memory device though, so that came as a surprise.


I liked this film a lot. While the story was threadbare and there wasn't even much dialogue, I found it pretty rivetting watching. Hoffman was terrific and understated, and this must have been a shock to audiences used to him in The Graduate.


** SPOILERS **

I found the whole flashback thing very ambiguous. Was his grandma good and kind, or was she mean and abusive, for example - hard to say from these little glimpses. And the thing with the girl. I couldn't work out what was real, what was fantasy, or what order we were to impose on these possible events. At one point she seems to be walking willingly somewhere, being provocative, as men follow, at another she's attacked and gangraped (as is Joe), then we seem to see him as one of the crowd watching her in a gangbang, and the constant voiceover of 'you're the only one, Joe'. This is obviously haunting him, but what happened? There's a few possibles I guess:

- She was the town pump, and was in a gangbang, but they became lovers and he becomes 'the only one'. The good ole boys decide on a good time one night, and attack both of them,

- She was his girl, then somehow took part in a gangbang which he starts to rationalise as an attack

- She was attacked (as was he), but he tries to assuage his guilt about not protecting her by sometimes reimagining it as voluntary.


I think the last one the most likely. There may be others.


His name, 'Joe Buck' is quite accurate in terms of his motivations. Buck in terms of a young male looking for action, and buck in terms of his quest for the dollar. First it's greed, and later it's necessity as him and Ratso have to make ends meet. However, he's a likeable guy, and good at heart, and even through the sordid sexual escapades and even the beating of the guy at the end, he remains something of an innocent and distanced from what's going on. Only at the end, when he dumps the cowboy clothes, do you get a sense he's engaging with reality more realistically.


Finally, the relationship between Joe and Ratso. There's a lot of references and indeed acceptance in the film about homosexuality, and indeed shots and moments where you could interpret their relationship as having that subtext, but what struck me about the movie was that the relationship was more like two prepubescent boys as friends - a pair of 10 year-old boys was what they conjured up for me. They kid with each other, but they stick together and do stuff for each other. It does seem purely platonic and, again, innocent, despite the stuff they both have to do to survive and get through the cold and hungry days.


Good choice, good to watch.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

If we're looking at names, I'd suggest thinking of Buck in terms of stud, as in "a young buck."

SPOILER: Regarding the rape scene, her saying that he is the only one is something I took as alternatively her conscious shame over being raped/possibly pregnant, and getting out of it by pinning all the blame on Joe. Or, more likely, as her mind being basically fried by the horror of the experience, and her rejecting same by withdrawing into the lesser horror of imagining she was the partner of Joe alone. That eventually becomes the testimony, from a woman sane or mad, that sends him to prison.

Joe wants to be a hustler, but is painfully naive and out of step with the world and winds up getting hustled by everyone himself. Even his attempt to escape his tiny world, where the rape seems to show he has zero control even over what happens regarding the person he loves the most, winds up in him being part of a sort of hustle that jails him. Stay or go, he is not the big man in charge he wants to be, but the one being hustled. And he doesn't need to be a hustler and gain power and esteem to raise himself up and be somehow a step ahead of others, but just to be able to step up from the bottom and try to break even. And he can't even do that.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

I was wondering, with the strong thread of homosexuality that runs through this film, was it controversial in America? Were screens picketted by the vocal moral minority? I'm pretty sure it passed without much fuss in Europe.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

It was rated X in America.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was rated X in America.

[/ QUOTE ]

And, to this day, the only rated X film ever to win a Best Picture Oscar.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Saw this once. Definitely a period piece in which if you were a grown adult at the time you could definitely relate. I was born shortly after so I have no frame of reference whatsoever, and as such the movie is largely lost on me.

However, the Nilsson song is so awesome in that movie, it's right up there with "Raindrops Keep Fallin On My Head" in Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid for most awesomely placed songs in flicks.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, the relationship between Joe and Ratso. There's a lot of references and indeed acceptance in the film about homosexuality, and indeed shots and moments where you could interpret their relationship as having that subtext, but what struck me about the movie was that the relationship was more like two prepubescent boys as friends - a pair of 10 year-old boys was what they conjured up for me. They kid with each other, but they stick together and do stuff for each other. It does seem purely platonic and, again, innocent, despite the stuff they both have to do to survive and get through the cold and hungry days.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much how I viewed their relationship as well. I haven't read it, but have heard that in the novel Ratso (another perfectly named character, btw) is gay. I didn't notice any indication of this in the film though.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was rated X in America.

[/ QUOTE ]

And, to this day, the only rated X film ever to win a Best Picture Oscar.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's not really what I was asking. Was it a hot potato, like Clockwork Orange or Straw Dogs?

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was rated X in America.

[/ QUOTE ]

And, to this day, the only rated X film ever to win a Best Picture Oscar.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's not really what I was asking. Was it a hot potato, like Clockwork Orange or Straw Dogs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was controversial and inspired Op-Ed pieces, but I don't think it was a hot potato.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Those two were bigger as hot potatoes in England. In America, the X rating pretty much defines a hot potato, or over political content.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Just rewatched this last weekend and it was the first time I had seen it in many years. I had forgotten a lot of it. I thought Voight was very good and Hoffman spectacular. In mind Hoffmans best ever performance.

I enjoyed it a lot but felt it got a little bogged down in the middle. I didn't remember the flashback scenes at all and agree with Diebitter and their ambiguity. They were a bit confusing. Other than that though I felt it was very well done and most of the main points have already been covered.

This was a big deal at the time and got a lot of talk and heat and really was groundbreaking.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

I wanted to say I watched it and now I'm depressed. Man, what was I thinking to nominate this film. I last saw it when I was in college and pretty much did not remember one bit of it. Yikes.

It was much more seedy and gritty than I remembered. I found the flashbacks to be really confusing. They were too quick and the black and white film was just unnecessary if you ask me. Also, during some of the flashbacks the music became bizarre and pounding, like super irritating. Tuq is right, it is a period piece and felt very dated to me.

I'm not sure what was going on in those flashbacks with his old girlfriend. I guess my take on it was Diebitter's first scenario, that she was gangbanged and then the two became lovers only to be attacked by the good ole boys later.


Agree with Dom that Dustin Hoffman and Voight are incredible together. I cannot believe this is the same guy who appeared in Straw Dogs and The Graduate. Wow. I can see where some might say that Voight laid it on a little thick with the dumb cowboy act but he is so sweet and caring towards Rizzo, (loved the scenes with him in Rizzo's ratty little apartment) and turns in a shockingly brutal scene in the old man's hotel room, that I feel it was a truly great performance. I think he should have won an award. As one reviewer wrote, Hoffman and Voight could teach a few people some lessons in acting!

Omg, you guys did not talk about that weird party scene or that horrible fall down the stairs. I was seriously weirded out by that. Halfway through the movie I started thinking that it would have been extremely helpful if I were buzzed. It was difficult for me to watch.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Interesting you nominate this as the first step towards New Hollywood. I haven't seen it for years, but I always think of the performances as reminiscent of older films from the 40's and 50's - subtle and underacted, ambiguous, designed more to provoke a feeling than tell a story - than the sorts of performances that have been valued for the last 30 years. More is left unsaid than made explicit. I presume this was an outgrowth of having to tread a fine line regarding the homosexuality of Ratso and Joe, but I think it suits the entire picture well.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was rated X in America.

[/ QUOTE ]

And, to this day, the only rated X film ever to win a Best Picture Oscar.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's not really what I was asking. Was it a hot potato, like Clockwork Orange or Straw Dogs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was controversial and inspired Op-Ed pieces, but I don't think it was a hot potato.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember the "scandal" when it opened at our neighborhood theater in the suburbs. They closed the sidewalk box office and drew all the curtains in the lobby so you couldn't look in and see who was waiting to see the film. The movie poster was simply solid black with white lettering with only the words "Midnight Cowboy". All the kids in the neighborhood were trying to sneak in to see it and they had ushers at every exit and cleared the theater after every show.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

lol @ this film being x-rated.

voight looks hella like angelina.

have now seen another classic. next.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

rothko,

Thanks for ditching the marionette.

John Voight on IMDB. I've always been surprised that given his acting ability he didn't seem to retain the star power of Hoffman, or of a De Niro or Pacino level. Among other films, he starred in Midnight Cowboy, Deliverance, The Champ (awesome flick), then he seemed to not get or take any more parts for awhile. Maybe he just didn't want them. He had a couple of awesome turns in the mid-90s, both as Nate the fence in "Heat" and as the blind man in "U-Turn", which were both stellar films.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

I've often wondered this about stars, but basically concluded that sometimes you just don't know. Maybe they wanted to be fathers for a while, or drunks, or play in a band, or travel. Could be about choice, or maybe not. Even really hot stars can dim really fast. They can also get a ton of bad scripts an be unable to capitalize on their popularity.

I think it's easier for a Hoffman than many, because he has been willing to play so many diverse roles. A classic leading man type really can't switch in and out of leading man roles easily, and there aren't even that many guys who are classic leading men; most have some quirks or fall short one way or another. I think playing the classic leading man is more like hitting the lottery, in that there's a narrower opportunity, but if everything turns your way, your score is huge.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

At the beginning of the film I sort of thought Voight was too old for the part. Something didn't feel right to me when he was first walking the streets of New York. But as the movie progressed I was pleasantly surprised at how good he was. I never knew he was such a good actor. That ending on the bus was heart wrenching. Voight's face was incredible at conveying his emotions.

Loved the scene where he ditches his cowboy boots and jacket and then gets back on the bus. Just thinking about it is making me want to cry.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never knew he was such a good actor.

[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is, I don't recall seeing him in anything where he wasn't awesome. He's right up there with Harvey Keitel for actors that aren't A-list but are among my favorites.

If you're gonna do this movie thing and want something that you haven't seen but that is hilarious, rent S.O.B.. Actually, it may be hard to find that film on DVD form, but I rent it every few years for some laughs. It's damned funny, and it's also William Holden's last film. The cast is pretty solid and Julie Andrews ripping her shirt open to show her breasts is pretty LOL.

Despite the awesomeness of this film I never see or hear it discussed anywhere, and am only aware of it because my stepfather turned me on to it.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Yeah, it was a very emotional ending. The movie was a great emotional work-out.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
rothko,

Thanks for ditching the marionette.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, it'll be back--just give it a break from time to time.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol @ this film being x-rated.

voight looks hella like angelina.

have now seen another classic. next.

[/ QUOTE ]


[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol @ this film being x-rated.

voight looks hella like angelina.

have now seen another classic. next.

[/ QUOTE ]


[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

thx

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

You want to know what's disappointing?

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

y/n
^

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

A beautiful woman with bad breath? Not eating for a week and then finding your soup has a hair in it? Winning a ten million dollar lottery when just a week ago it was worth twenty million?

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

blarg, bad edit. ctrl z, plz.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
A beautiful woman with bad breath? Not eating for a week and then finding your soup has a hair in it? Winning a ten million dollar lottery when just a week ago it was worth twenty million?

[/ QUOTE ]

no.


(a woman with bad breath?)

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Man, that top picture is a classic.

I saw it again recently, after not having seen it in a long time and didn't enjoy it. It sure seems dated and the shock of seeing the things it showed has, of course, worn off, as you can now see those things on TV commercials. That said, I still consider it Dustin Hoffman's greatest performance and that he lost out to John Wayne in True Grit for Best Actor that year is one of the academy's greatest travesties.

The movie was rated "X" and won the Oscar. Wow.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Blake Edwards' best movie. My favorite line was when one of the characters says, "That's one nervous Jew." The other character says, "Is he nervous? I didn't know he was nervous. Some of my best friends are nervous."

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
rothko,

Thanks for ditching the marionette.

John Voight on IMDB. I've always been surprised that given his acting ability he didn't seem to retain the star power of Hoffman, or of a De Niro or Pacino level. Among other films, he starred in Midnight Cowboy, Deliverance, The Champ (awesome flick), then he seemed to not get or take any more parts for awhile. Maybe he just didn't want them. He had a couple of awesome turns in the mid-90s, both as Nate the fence in "Heat" and as the blind man in "U-Turn", which were both stellar films.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he did win an Oscar for Coming Home...

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never knew he was such a good actor.

[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is, I don't recall seeing him in anything where he wasn't awesome. He's right up there with Harvey Keitel for actors that aren't A-list but are among my favorites.

If you're gonna do this movie thing and want something that you haven't seen but that is hilarious, rent S.O.B.. Actually, it may be hard to find that film on DVD form, but I rent it every few years for some laughs. It's damned funny, and it's also William Holden's last film. The cast is pretty solid and Julie Andrews ripping her shirt open to show her breasts is pretty LOL.

Despite the awesomeness of this film I never see or hear it discussed anywhere, and am only aware of it because my stepfather turned me on to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

SOB is my favorite movie about the movies! Fantastic film, very funny, and a fantastic cast.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Wasn't this thing a total bomb and something like the comedy version of Heaven's Gate for Blake Edwards(think that was the director)? Insanely expensive -- I remember reading stories about them waiting three days with a full crew to get the right cloud pattern in the sky to background one of the scenes, etc. I'm surprised to see the love for it here; I remember having read it was bad.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't this thing a total bomb and something like the comedy version of Heaven's Gate for Blake Edwards(think that was the director)? Insanely expensive -- I remember reading stories about them waiting three days with a full crew to get the right cloud pattern in the sky to background one of the scenes, etc. I'm surprised to see the love for it here; I remember having read it was bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the link I provided, it said reviews were sharply divided. The negative opinions may have been what has relegated this film to relative obscurity, but I adore it. I guess it comes down to whether you're prepared to be entertained or to shoot holes in it.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't this thing a total bomb and something like the comedy version of Heaven's Gate for Blake Edwards(think that was the director)? Insanely expensive -- I remember reading stories about them waiting three days with a full crew to get the right cloud pattern in the sky to background one of the scenes, etc. I'm surprised to see the love for it here; I remember having read it was bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blake Edwards wasn't that kind of director...he wouldn't give a damn if the sky was green, as long as he got the laugh on camera. It did bomb, though...mostly because it is ridiculously "inside" and thought to be funny only to those who have worked in the movie business.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

Dom,

Interesting, but I'm not within a country mile of the film industry and I "got it".

Also, you not addressing my how/where have you worked with Bridget Fonda question in that now floundering thread makes me kinda sad.

Re: Midnight Cowboy - discussion thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dom,

Interesting, but I'm not within a country mile of the film industry and I "got it".

Also, you not addressing my how/where have you worked with Bridget Fonda question in that now floundering thread makes me kinda sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say that was the reason it flopped, I said that others have said that. When I saw it I had had no experience in the industry and I got it, too.

And I never said I worked with Bridget Fonda.