RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

Villian is 35/16 and postflop he plays something between agressiv and passiv lol. Well preflop might be close but i like to play any suited vs SB open. He has a relativ low WTS so sometimes (not often) he will fold a better hand on the turn.What about the river play?

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, Hero ?

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

I wouldnt. His line looks like he can easily beat 2 pair. Also the turn is bad; hes never folding a better hand. I might even fold the flop here. Does anyone else?

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

Call turn bet. Dont raise

As played call river and expect to loose

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

Raise it. Unlikely a blind has a hand that beats you here. You're crushing AA,KK,AQ,KQ,QJ and only behind to QT,55,44. I think Q5-4, T5-4 are a bit unlikely, but possible.

Oh and I don't like the turn raise. Since you have a bunch of outs, just call. I think it's best to employ the FSD move when can auto-muck to a 3 bet, and obviously you can here.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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Raise it. Unlikely a blind has a hand that beats you here. You're crushing AA,KK,AQ,KQ,QJ and only behind to QT,55,44. I think Q5-4 are a bit unlikely, but possible.


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You need to discount AA, KK and Qx. Its far from every villain who 3-bets those.

You also need to add TT, Q5s, Q4s, Q2s, 54s.

If you cant fold to a 3-bet its not a raise. Even if you can fold to a 3-bet I doubt its a raise - but havent done the math.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

Forgot to add TT. I think Q2 is unlikely given he 3 bet turn.

But yeah, I like a call more unless we have a great read on villain's turn 3 betting range.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

This seems like a fairly easy raise in a blind battle. This will really tilt him if he lost. I don't mind the pre-flop call.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

i dont like the turn raise here but I dont really have good reasons other than u have to call a 3bet and u have less fold equity in a blind battle, most people bet call the turn with any PP here I think with all the potential draws so it just is a slightly -EV or break even play that adds variance.

U guys all left QQ out of his range as well, its certainly possible, and yes u have to discount AA KK AQ KQ, not every villain 3 bets those every time (its more likely if he expects u to 3bet TPGK and all PPs though keep that in mind when discounting), but probably always 3bets with QT TT QQ 44 and 55... so combo wise your losing to 19 and beating 36 which you have to discount. Vs that range offering up 3:2 on a raise it seems slightly -EV if you can't fold to a 3bet, if you discount KQ AQ or even overpairs quite a bit due to the turn 3bet (say maybe 75% of unknowns 3bet those or basing this on recent history with villain) then raise folding even if u never folded a winner (which you can't assume) would get thinnish. Throw in a few more hands like Q5 he might steal and the range shifts less in favor of a raise.

fwiw I think preflop is fine, but thinking about wtsd stats and trying to bluff him u should remember most players even weak tighties show down far more in blind battles than other situations.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

I disagree with about everyone here.

I think the turn is almost an auto-raise. We can't give the sb much credit for much here.

I think it is huge mistake to just call the turn and give him free draws to his outs on a drawish board. I want to make him pay. If you can't raise here, he wins the % of times he gets you to fold in this situation and he with % of time he outdraws you. Also, with a raise, you can get him to possibly fold and under pair.

I really love to play a player who will not raise me with a pair in situations like this because I am going to be firing a lot of flop/turns with nothing and I like to get free draws when an opponent is ahead.

The 3-bet absolutely sucks but I would call. When we hit the 2-pair on the river I would certainly give consideration to raising depending on the opponent.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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I wouldnt. His line looks like he can easily beat 2 pair. Also the turn is bad; hes never folding a better hand. I might even fold the flop here. Does anyone else?

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I thought the sb limped. Flop call is obv standard, but I hate preflop.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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I think it is huge mistake to just call the turn and give him free draws to his outs on a drawish board. I want to make him pay.

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If he 3-barrels his draw UI on the river then you gain nothing by raising since that will either make him fold right there or call and then c/f the river.


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If you can't raise here, he wins the % of times he gets you to fold in this situation and he with % of time he outdraws you.

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1) I will never fold.

2) When he hits his draw on the river then raising the turn will cost you 1 more bet than calling down. How is that an argument for raising?


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Also, with a raise, you can get him to possibly fold and under pair.

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This is never happening in a BvB.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

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6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

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6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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Dunno if thats an argument for raising. But just wanna say that I would rather keep 96hh in the pot than fold it out.

96hh has 4 outs in a 4.5BB pot, which is worth what? 0.4BB's? He dont have to 3-barrel an awful lot on the river to offset that value. Also add in when we win 3 BB's on 6s or 9s rivers.


IMHO. Anyone who wants to raise this turn plays too aggro in small HU pots.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

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6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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Considering the strength of a normal villain's hand range when they 2 barrel this board in this spot, raising the turn to get a 4 outer to fold isnt worth it.

I think there is some merit to raising the flop, but generally speaking, calling the turn here is the best play in a vacuum IMO.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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Turn raise is really bad IMO.

I call turn and raise river/call a 3-bet.

I would also raise this river but I am very aggro in blind battles. The more blind battles you have won w/o showdown the more likely that you should raise this river. As is if you are not comfortable calling is fine until you have a better read.

Don't pop the turn. Name me 1 hand that is bet/folding that turn in a blind battle. Now think again because you know what, he's not folding it.

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6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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Dunno if thats an argument for raising. But just wanna say that I would rather keep 96hh in the pot than fold it out.

96hh has 4 outs in a 4.5BB pot, which is worth what? 0.4BB's? He dont have to 3-barrel an awful lot on the river to offset that value. Also add in when we win 3 BB's on 6s or 9s rivers.


IMHO. Anyone who wants to raise this turn plays too aggro in small HU pots.

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Not saying its a reason to raise, just saying its a hand that b/fs the turn.It took me a few minutes to come up with a hand that had no draw and no showdown value that will b/f the turn. K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] too. Also I agree that id rather keep these hands in.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

i agree with others but just want to add that i think a big reason why we don't raise this turn is because the pot is small. if the pot was bigger i think raising the turn for a free showdown would make sense - not because we can fold some hands, but to charge his possible straight+overcard draws. getting 3-bet is not too expensive here since we have a lot of outs. this assumes he's not too aggressive so that

1. we can comfortably fold the river UI if he 3 bets.
2. he doesn't always 3-barrel UI.

if he's aggressive, just calling down, even in a bigger pot, is probably better.

Re: RiverRaisewith Bottom 2pair?
 

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If he 3-barrels his draw UI on the river then you gain nothing by raising since that will either make him fold right there or call and then c/f the river.

[/ QUOTE ]Of course, the game is a lot easier if you know what he will do [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I am not sure why we assume he would 3-barrel on the river.

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[1) I will never fold.

[/ QUOTE ]I mean the times where you have nothing. So, if he is constantly firing these situations he gets the pot the times you have nothing and fold away, he gets the pot the times he has something and you have something less, and he gets a free draw of his semi-bluffs. He also knows that you only raise when you have something good and it is much easier to play against you.

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2) When he hits his draw on the river then raising the turn will cost you 1 more bet than calling down. How is that an argument for raising?

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Because, you win one more bet the times he misses his draw and you pay one more bet the times he hits. He will miss way more than he hits. Of course, this assumes he will not 3-barrel.

I think it was in "Theory of Poker" that talks about the best response to a semi-bluff is to raise. Now, we don't know he is semi-bluffing here but with a drawish board the odds are much higher.

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This is never happening in a BvB.

[/ QUOTE ]I will absolutely fold a pair against certain players and I know that other players will fold a pair. It is not strong argument but the value is non-zero.