NL 200 - JTs
 

PokerStars 200 NL Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> HandRecorder v0.9b

Stacks &amp; Stats
BU ($383.60)
SB ($385.35)
BB ($216.65)
UTG ($257.35)
CO ($197)
Hero ($200)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls $7, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>.

Flop: ($18) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#FF0000">Hero bets $12</font>, <font color="#FF0000">SB raises to $24</font>, Hero calls $12.

Turn: ($66) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">SB bets $20</font>, Hero ???

opp is unknown .. not sure what to do on the flop and turn.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

I don´t want to play big pots with middle pair weak kicker so I would fold turn to his check raise. What do you put him on when he check raises?

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

I think raising preflop is fine, so is cbetting since Ax hands are a big part of your range. I think you can't call his raise on the flop though. Even though it is min-raise, you most likely have to improve to win the hand in which case you are not even sure if you're ahead.

No reads given I'd fold flop. As played you gotta fold Turn eventhough his bet seems really weak.

Raising his turn bet to get him to fold might work against a thinking player with stats. But since he mini check-raised flop i don't give him credit for being a good thinking player.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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What do you put him on when he check raises?

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That's just about it. Calling it needs a good reason, and the reason was the 2x raise (I don't think the 2x raise is generally a bad play but it depends, if one can get $12 with little risk and maybe $20 on the turn, considering milking and limit holdem comparable odds for taking the chance of a suckout, it being better than the opponent folding), but considering the check raise and the board type vs. the preflop raiser, small blind cold call, and likely a more solid brand of a game (than e.g. 400nl) and having just an MP with a weak kicker that one could in cases fold even in limit games, if not putting the opponent on a bottom pair or a draw.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

I fold to the flop c/r unless I have a read telling me I shouldn't.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

Against an unknown, I don't like your flop call here. He check minraised you -- fold and wait for a better spot/read.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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I fold to the flop c/r unless I have a read telling me I shouldn't.

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QFT. I check behind a lot aswell.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

meh i'd fold the flop against an unknown

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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I fold to the flop c/r unless I have a read telling me I shouldn't.

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QFT. I check behind a lot aswell.

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Huh? You check behind on this flop?

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

check behind or fold to the flop raise

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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I fold to the flop c/r unless I have a read telling me I shouldn't.

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QFT. I check behind a lot aswell.

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Huh? You check behind on this flop?

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Yes.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

dont fold the flop, turn is marginal. i think you can fold there

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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I fold to the flop c/r unless I have a read telling me I shouldn't.

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QFT. I check behind a lot aswell.

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Huh? You check behind on this flop?

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Yes.

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This is a great flop for a c-bet. Why would you ever check behind here?

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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I fold to the flop c/r unless I have a read telling me I shouldn't.

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QFT. I check behind a lot aswell.

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Huh? You check behind on this flop?

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Yes.

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This is a great flop for a c-bet. Why would you ever check behind here?

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Yeah a great flop to fold out worse hands and get called by everything better than us.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

KQ beats us now?

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

I think a lot of the time people are going to be raising rather than calling with a gutter like KQ and sometimes with the oesd/double gutter and our hand can't stand heat imo.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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I fold to the flop c/r unless I have a read telling me I shouldn't.

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QFT. I check behind a lot aswell.

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Huh? You check behind on this flop?

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Yes.

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Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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I fold to the flop c/r unless I have a read telling me I shouldn't.

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QFT. I check behind a lot aswell.

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Huh? You check behind on this flop?

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Yes.

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This is a great flop for a c-bet. Why would you ever check behind here?

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Yeah a great flop to fold out worse hands and get called by everything better than us.

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This is pretty bad logic. There are much more pros than cons by betting here, such as folding out a better hand (a weak Ace, J10+, QQ), taking control of the hand, getting info, etc.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

a random 200nl player? nah i dont think so. I know you like checking behind on alot of flops where our hand is vulnerable jay, and i do too if the board is really drawy. But there is alot of value in a flop bet here. We don't get raised too often.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

I also can't count the number of times people will fire 88, KQ, 76s whatever into me on turn and river when I check the flop. Way more value here than trying to charge a few random straight draws/protect from the 2 overcards.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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I also can't count the number of times people will fire 88, KQ, 76s whatever into me on turn and river when I check the flop. Way more value here than trying to charge a few random straight draws/protect from the 2 overcards.

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Are you willing to call another bet if a K or Q falls on turn? 2 bets?

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

i think you overestimate that too, generally when they have called pf they check and call more then they bet and raise. In my experience.

guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, I'm betting this flop alot.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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I also can't count the number of times people will fire 88, KQ, 76s whatever into me on turn and river when I check the flop. Way more value here than trying to charge a few random straight draws/protect from the 2 overcards.

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88 has you crushed.

Also, you know nothing about the strength of villain's hand. You check behind flop, and call a good sized bet on the turn and river? Really? A lot of his range has you beat.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

I might call like u from time to time in position ([censored] miniraises).But if i am calling here it s not only to catch a T or a J ,i m calling coz i plan on outplaying him if he shows weakness on turn.
To make a miniraise on flop he either have a really strong hand or he is trying to find out where he stands cheaply also it can be a cheap bluff ,his bet on the turn looks real weak, i raise to 70 and give up if called.
Risky against an unknown but his bets smells like weakness to me on that board.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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a random 200nl player? nah i dont think so. I know you like checking behind on alot of flops where our hand is vulnerable jay, and i do too if the board is really drawy. But there is alot of value in a flop bet here. We don't get raised too often.

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Value from what? The straight draws which are a very small part of his range? Smaller pairs? We still have 2 streets to get value from these and they typiclly put money in a lot more readily on later streets. A check bet bet line usually gets like, no credit from random players at 200NL, I do it with weak Aces on this board all the time and get called by all kinda of crap hands.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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Also, you know nothing about the strength of villain's hand. You check behind flop, and call a good sized bet on the turn and river? Really? A lot of his range has you beat.

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We are easily good enough to call most of the time. If he bets turn and river I sometimes fold river when my sixth sense kicks in.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

a cbet gets no credit either

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

c-betting this flop sucks.

Your hand has value. Why fold out everything that we're currently beating?

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

lol @ betting sucking

you might prefer a check over a bet, but a bet is definitely not bad

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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a cbet gets no credit either

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What? This is like the best board there is to fold out pairs smaller than a Jack.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

I stand by my statement.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

you think a small pair is going to call on an overcard turn? If villain is laying down a pp on the flop, he's going to be laying it down on most turns anyway. The fact that there are 2 broadway cards out makes it a bet imo.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

But you're forgetting that he sometimes bluffs the turn with these hands.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

how do you ever get value from your Ax hands if you regularly check in spots like this?

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

no im not, but we have no idea of his bluffing frequencies. So it isn't a great idea to check to induce bluffs.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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how do you ever get value from your Ax hands if you regularly check in spots like this?

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?????

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

So basically you think the chance that villain with float OOP with a small PP is &gt; than the chance he bluffs the turn (or calls our bet on the turn)?

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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c-betting this flop sucks.

Your hand has value. Why fold out everything that we're currently beating?

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Coz betting to know where u at has value on that kind of board (cut down on futur losses because u have no clue if u have the best hand or not).
Coz u don t want to check a flop everytime u have medium pair because it becomes easy to get exploited on this.

It s obviously read dependant but against an unknown or a tight player i fire a bullet on that flop.

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

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how do you ever get value from your Ax hands if you regularly check in spots like this?

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?????

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If your checking Axx flops most of the time when you don't have an A then how do you get people to call c-bets when you do have an A?

I'm not saying your wrong I just don't understand. Do you check AK here also?

Re: NL 200 - JTs
 

Who's to say i'm betting these flops with Ax all the time?