Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

Is this a good idea or not?

I'm 23 and just started a [censored] job close to Foxwoods. The job is going nowhere, the money is unimpressive, and I'm working 50 hours a week. I'm not getting out enough, not making enough money, and unclear on how I want to spend the rest of my life. Graduate skoool is likely in the future, but I'm not ready to commit to any field of study.

The good news:

I'm a successful 1/2 and 2/5 live player w/ 1000+ hours of experience. I've been going to Foxwoods 4-6 times a month, clearing over $1,500/mo. My game is tight and unsophisticated, and there is plenty of room for improvements/increased winrates.

My wish:

I've been imagining how much fun it would be to move to a B&M city (probably Vegas, LA, or AC) and split a house/apt with other like-minded degenerates. I would take on 2/5 for a living with an initial $15,000 bankroll, and improve my game through experience and discussions with my new roomies. I would play poker probably four days a week, and bartend 1-2 days a week for a change, and to stay social.

My question:

Is this a good idea? Will I go crazy grinding it out in a B&M for days on end? Am I not being realistic? And finally, is there anyone who feels similarly?

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

You can make more money in less time playing on the internet. I don't know why anybody would play live exclusively at those stakes.

Re: your questions, some people can do it, some can't. Only people who know your play and personality well could give you a meaningful answer as to whether or not this is a good idea. However, if you have the opportunity to try it out without costing yourself much down the road (in terms of job advancement, being out of the industry, etc.) then go for it.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

Will this (negatively) impact your ability to get into grad school?

If not, this seems like the best time in your life to pursue such a goal. The downside is pretty minimal.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

do it. i've been grinding 1/2 and 2/5 for about a year, switching from the internet then. it's great. i don't play nearly enough but i travel a lot, i make enough to pay all my bills, do whatever i want and save a little money. i play ~20 hours a week these days, it was a lot more in the beginning.. i don't spend as much money so i don't have the drive to play as much.

i think if you have no career goals it's a great idea. don't move to LA. i mean, if you want.. but its a crappy area imo, cost of living is through the roof, etc.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

why not just bartend 4-5 days a week instead? I doubt the 2/5 money will be much better.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

Go for it. But work on your micro stakes online game at the same time and start moving up online, adding extra income when you get sick of playing live, which will happen for sure. And plan for something in the future to better your life so you don't wind up at the exact same place with no money saved in 5 years.

If you want to move to Vegas and need a roomie I'm down.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

I wish I was younger so I could do what you want to do.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

Most of these type of posts make me roll my eyes, but you sound like a legit candidate. You have the roll and an apparent realistic perspective of things. Staying social and working part time is clutch.

Throw in a little time playing online, mentally prepare yourself for break-even stretches and downswings, and continue to learn. If you are lucky, you will have your fun and still decide to go to grad school, ultimately enjoying the best of both worlds.

Mixing it up between the efficiency of online poker, and the social aspects of live play, is a great way to maintain your sanity. However, between the time spent in the poker rooms and behind the bar, I would seriously consider living alone. That should provide you with enough human contact. The unappetizing shenanigans involved with roommate situations are an unnecessary distraction.

Don't solicit advice from family members that don't know anything about poker. Their natural risk-averse attitudes, which are intended for what they think will be in your best interests, can neg you out. Just go for it and have a blast.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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Most of these type of posts make me roll my eyes, but you sound like a legit candidate. You have the roll and an apparent realistic perspective of things.

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I'm not so sure:

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I'm a successful 1/2 and 2/5 live player w/ 1000+ hours of experience. I've been going to Foxwoods 4-6 times a month, clearing over $1,500/mo. My game is tight and unsophisticated, and there is plenty of room for improvements/increased winrates.

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I think he should put in alot more hours than just 4-6 times a month. That isn't even a taste of what it's like to play for a living.

Also, $1500 for only 6 times a month? Seems like he's ina good stretch of running well. Only 1000 hours? Not alot to really base anything on.

Keep the day job and learn how to grind with backup.

b

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Most of these type of posts make me roll my eyes, but you sound like a legit candidate. You have the roll and an apparent realistic perspective of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a successful 1/2 and 2/5 live player w/ 1000+ hours of experience. I've been going to Foxwoods 4-6 times a month, clearing over $1,500/mo. My game is tight and unsophisticated, and there is plenty of room for improvements/increased winrates.

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I think he should put in alot more hours than just 4-6 times a month. That isn't even a taste of what it's like to play for a living.

Also, $1500 for only 6 times a month? Seems like he's ina good stretch of running well. Only 1000 hours? Not alot to really base anything on.

Keep the day job and learn how to grind with backup.

b

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Man, I wish I were 23 again. I would play online and multitable all day, every day. There is so much money to be made if you are intelligent you need to take your shot now.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

bernie,

I hear ya and I know your thoughts are well-intentioned. However, the subject here is 23 years old, evidently unmarried and without children. He has an education and some money in the bank. Why not take a shot?

Every day of my miserable 38 year old life, I regret not packing up and leaving when I was the OP's age. He will most assuredly take his lumps but that's how we learn. Providing he is being honest here, and is not prone to getting into the drug scene or turning losing nights into even bigger ones playing pit games, I would hate to see him approach his dreams too conservatively.

Let's say he decides to prove himself by grinding micro stakes for a certain period of time. Let's further suppose he plays like a champ and eats [censored] for 100,000 hands. He could wind up so discouraged he may wind up saying "f poker and moving to Vegas"- ultimately settling for a hum-drum ordinary life- always wondering about "what could have been".

He's young and in a rut. Why not get out in the world and have some fun?

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

Go for it, you only live once. I am grinding it out at the casino for a living and loving it. You may want to consider going beyond 2/5 though. I know for a fact that 5/10 and 10/20 games are very often filled with complete fools. You are missing out big time by not playing in those games. Obviously you have to deal with some big swings, but I look at that as a small price to pay for access to a goldmine.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

Why not increase your play at Foxwoods? A move can be expensive and perhaps you can decrease your job time in order to allay expenses.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

And maybe jump up to $4/8 or a similar level where you'd have a better shot at keeping ahead the rake?

Good luck if you go for it, and keep us all posted. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

i was just wondering how long have you been playing poker? what stakes do you normally play? and how many books have you read? the reason i ask is that i want to start playing poker in the casinos, ive read about 15 to 20 poker books, im always reading poker arcticles on the internet, i watch it on tv all the time, and for the past year and a half i have been playing for fake money online at the 5/10 stakes, ive gotten as high as 1.7 million but lost it all from august34 of this year ive accumulated 645,000 in play money in the 5/10 blinds. i plugeed up some leaks in my game and i find that i can beat the 5/10 and even the 100/200 fake games. i firgure if i use the same strdegy in a real game i can beat those games too whats your take???? oh yeah what blinds would you say id have to play at to clear $150,000 a year?

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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i was just wondering how long have you been playing poker? what stakes do you normally play? and how many books have you read? the reason i ask is that i want to start playing poker in the casinos, ive read about 15 to 20 poker books, im always reading poker arcticles on the internet, i watch it on tv all the time, and for the past year and a half i have been playing for fake money online at the 5/10 stakes, ive gotten as high as 1.7 million but lost it all from august34 of this year ive accumulated 645,000 in play money in the 5/10 blinds. i plugeed up some leaks in my game and i find that i can beat the 5/10 and even the 100/200 fake games. i firgure if i use the same strdegy in a real game i can beat those games too whats your take???? oh yeah what blinds would you say id have to play at to clear $150,000 a year?

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Real money or play money?

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

[ QUOTE ]
And maybe jump up to $4/8 or a similar level where you'd have a better shot at keeping ahead the rake?

Good luck if you go for it, and keep us all posted. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I'm pretty sure OP is referring to Unlimited Bet Hold Them, in which case the rake shouldn't be a major issue (providing he is not playing in Australia).

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

Risky... You only have between 15 and 30 buyins and unless you are one hell of a bar tender you will be dependent on your poker income to live.

Trust me, playing for fun and profit, no matter how serious you take your game, is a lot different than playing for your rent, food, insurance/medical bills, etc, etc. It changes your game, in the very best case, it changes your game in the short run before you can get your head straight.

Remember there are going to be weeks where you don't make, you will lose or break even, and you will have to dip into that roll to pay the bills.

You can live modestly/risky and get by in those down streaks.

Now saying all the bad things that haven't been mentioned yet... Let me say if you have twice the BR and are someplace where you can practice some game selection like LA or LV, mix in some 5/10 when the games are great, and keep finding the good/great 2/5 games, you will have a blast, and could move up in stakes and make some real scratch.

As for playing online, if you can be a winning player, and want to earn, that is the place be for sure. Consider that you have even a slight edge in a game(s) where you can see 200-300 hands an hour compared to 25-35 hands an hour live where hopefully you have a significant edge, do the math, online wins hands down.

Which ever way you end up jumping, I wish you the best of luck, you are in a great place, enjoy it, don't sweat it bro!

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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bernie,

I hear ya and I know your thoughts are well-intentioned. However, the subject here is 23 years old, evidently unmarried and without children. He has an education and some money in the bank. Why not take a shot?

Every day of my miserable 38 year old life, I regret not packing up and leaving when I was the OP's age. He will most assuredly take his lumps but that's how we learn. Providing he is being honest here, and is not prone to getting into the drug scene or turning losing nights into even bigger ones playing pit games, I would hate to see him approach his dreams too conservatively.

Let's say he decides to prove himself by grinding micro stakes for a certain period of time. Let's further suppose he plays like a champ and eats [censored] for 100,000 hands. He could wind up so discouraged he may wind up saying "f poker and moving to Vegas"- ultimately settling for a hum-drum ordinary life- always wondering about "what could have been".

He's young and in a rut. Why not get out in the world and have some fun?

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I hear ya.

However, he makes no mention of any roll for living expenses. $15k is ok(not super) if you have 6mos to a year behind you in additional LE. Given the timeframe he gave, he's not a proven winner. It's a big leap from playing 4-6 times a month to playing full time.

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I would hate to see him approach his dreams too conservatively.


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I agree. I also think poker, especially live poker as he seems to want to play, can be very brutal. Many underestimate it. From outside, it looks more glamorous than it is. Imo, conservative has its place when it comes to the world of gambling. You also tend to be surrounded by miserable and petty people all day long. The swings can be much longer than online. I agree with the others to grind the roll up online. If he's really that good, it won't take that long. If he eats 100,000 hands he has an answer depending on how he handles that bad run of cards.

But it is a good point that he is only 23. But that's about the only thing in the OP that I'd say works in his favor that I read.

I caution anyone from going into it full time unless they've(among other things):

Gone through a major swing and came out.
Understand a reasonable winrate that they can expect.
Understand the budget of living expenses with an endeavor like this.

From what I've seen in cardrooms, I can't just tell someone, yeah, go for it! I've seen it change alot of people for the worse. Imo, there's more for a 23 year old to do to get out of a rut than spend 30+ hours a week in a cardroom.

If he does choose to do it, I wish him the best and more power to him, but I think a word of caution and reality should be said.

b

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

As someone who has also considered making this move, albeit not nearly as seriously, it seems to me that you should try "living the life-style" by playing at Foxwoods 5-7 days of the week for a few months. Altough this probably isn't a long enough period to show decisively if you're a winning player, it should certainly provide some amount of clarification. If you do well financially and can mentally handle the grind of doing nothing but playing live poker, then perhaps you should make your move. My point is, if you have the opportunity to test out the conditions that you're talking about throwing yourself into, then by all means, take it. If you like what little you see of the life, then go for it.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

My 2 cents:

Whenever I look at the young 'pros' in my games I feel more sadness for them than anything else even if they're winners and I think they'll stay winners. It's a horrible life, makes a person a social outcast and whatever freedoms you think poker as a career gives you they are not worth it. There is a reason that poker is an incestuous community. The only person that should marry a poker player is another poker player so that they can understand each other when times get miserable.

I say find a better job and concentrate on your education and career.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

It may be, but not quite yet. $15k isn't enough of a bankroll if you'll use it for your expenses also. It's stressful when you have a losing month AND your expenses come out of your bankroll. I've been there. Try to build up a bigger bank. On top of that I'm not sure that you've put in enough hours if you only play 4-6 times a month...but then again you do have a fall back plan; graduate school.

It's not as easy as it looks. Outside of good game selection you need good money management and discipline as well as being able to be honest w/ yourself. Grinding a cash game is hard work too

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

i moved to vegas last summer after i got done with college with like 1000 dollars to my name and no plan on what to do, no car and no place to live. ive ground my wawy up online from microstakes and have paid all my bills rent food etc. it honestly sucked at first but now im glad i did it, its been a sweet adventure and i dont think there is any other time in my life where i would have put myself trough this. forgot to add i only did it cause i was done with school and i def. dont plan on doing this for the rest of my life.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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Is this a good idea or not?

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If I were in this situation, I might give it a shot.
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I'm a successful 1/2 and 2/5 live player w/ 1000+ hours of experience. I've been going to Foxwoods 4-6 times a month, clearing over $1,500/mo. My game is tight and unsophisticated, and there is plenty of room for improvements/increased winrates.

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Some of this makes me skeptical at how successful you would be.
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I would take on 2/5 for a living with an initial $15,000 bankroll, and improve my game through experience and discussions with my new roomies. I would play poker probably four days a week, and bartend 1-2 days a week for a change, and to stay social.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good, and I think those that have commented haven't thought about how spending 1/3 of your time working in another field and having 1/3 of your income coming from a consistent source makes this tremendously easier monetarily and psychologically.

I think this is an opportune time to do make such a move, especially if your planning on going to school. I fear making such a move because I don't want to do grad school and I've had enough trouble getting jobs in my 2 years since college.

P.S. Kinda drunk...hope I made sense

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

lol...why be a live pro when the internet exists? is this a huge level?

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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lol...why be a live pro when the internet exists? is this a huge level?

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don't even bother asking this; people here have an irrational love affair with casino poker. yes, it's easier than online, but you get to play 10% as many hands.

i very much enjoy live poker as a recreational activity, but i play online to put myself through law school.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

im staying with a friend in vegas and have been for a couple months. i spend a lot of time playing live and can safely say that anyone who knows what theyre doing can smash the games here. i play a different style than most people and i am a savvy fox and i have striking good looks, but the play is so bad at 2/5 that i feel like i could teach a ten-year-old how to win ~$500 a night in about a week of training. if it were a nubile ten-year-old girl i would then also teach her other things, but thats beside the point.

as for swongs, theyre one thing, but over the past three weeks at 2-5 (with about 10% at each of 1-2 and 5-10) i've had one losing session. and generally a session for me is like four to six hours, so i am a model of consistency. it is very realistic to run sustainably at 50bbs/100hands. (i think thats 25ptbbs). the obvious drawback is you get in like 30 hands an hour.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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it is very realistic to run sustainably at 50bbs/100hands. (i think thats 25ptbbs).

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Not over long run I think.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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if it were a nubile ten-year-old girl i would then also teach her other thing

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you pathetic sick f uck

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

Make sure you invest regularly in a high paying savings account........PAY YOURSELF MONTHLY.

When you reach your mid 40's you will have a nice nest egg.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

Lots of interesting opinions on both sides so far.

I quit a high paying job with a wife and two kids to play poker - for a living if I could get good enough. I did this over two years ago. My good fortune is that my wife has a great job, I am lucky to spend so much time with the kids (now as the primary caregiver - or "housewife") and my mother-in-law lives across the country.

At first I was exclusively on-line. Its a great way to play a zillion hands and try new strategies, etc. But I wouldn't play on-line professionally. Too little contact with people.

I now play live several times a month, traveling over 2 hours to Foxwoods and staying over Friday night. I have raised my game to 10/20 LHE and hope to move up to 20/40 soon (when I feel comfortable that a couple of major leaks have been plugged and I can deal with adversity without tilting). I have not regretted my choice at all. I left stress behind and I totally love what I do.

If you love poker - then give it a try. Why not? The downside is you will end up where you are now, knowing that you gave it your best shot. The alternative would be to always regret never trying.

I SAY BUSTO IN A SIX MONTHS!!!!
 

Keep your day job. You'll need it at some point.

If you're really serious about grinding, stick to limit.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

I'm in a similar boat & same age and position as you (done w/college debating what to do next), so I like this thread and find it interesting. Very, very tough call. I'd say go for it though, as you'll regret not doing it later. I am also curious about win rates and such, as I havent played enough hours to know. But, I've seen soft enough 1/2 games (which wont make a living, but 2-300 max in ac/fw/ts can be soft as hell) and i'd say go with 10-20 limit, 15-30 limit, and 2-5 NL and just travel around or camp out in la so you can go to san diego and vegas at times too...that would be ideal for me, live in ac/south jersey for summer, and out west winter and hit a bunch of rooms...but, as people said, a LOT different playing for rent money than fun, whole outlook changes, maybe make some folds you shouldnt or try to press to get even/ahead when you know you're beat, I have to believe it takes a mental toll...Good luck, curious how you do since I was going to post a similar topic thread

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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You also tend to be surrounded by miserable and petty people all day long.

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This is a good point and can be a huge drawback. Personally, I really enjoy playing poker but really get tired of being around poker players. Beware of the dark and negative cloud hanging around some players, they will try to suck you in their bitter little world.

Depending on the city you play in, the time of day can help avoid these peeps as well as maybe find a more profitable game. You will make more money against casual players out for and afternoon / evening of fun than the grinders and regular rocks who show up every day at 10am, rain or shine. Plus, th casual players are more fun to be around.

Re: I SAY BUSTO IN A SIX MONTHS!!!!
 

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If you're really serious about grinding, stick to limit.

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??

Re: I SAY BUSTO IN A SIX MONTHS!!!!
 

About 75% of college age poker players have similar wild ideas, about a life of fame, fortune, and "ease" playing Hold Em as opposed to the "boring" work world. They foresee easy wins with little work, not considering the future consequences.

Most such individuals are overestimating their chances, coupled with not having adequate bankrolls or clear ideas of the swings involved, etc. Thus, the idea goes down in flames rather quickly for just about everyone who attempts to do this. Only the truly good, disciplined players survive.

I myself did this for a year and a half, alternating between 2/5 NL and occasional 1/2 NL, with about 5-10% tournaments mixed in, and dealing games on the side. Most of the time, the money far exceeded what someone in their mid 20's could earn at even a good job. The hours were good, considering I could sleep late and make my own schedule most of the time. I was also able to meet semi-famous players, as well as new people constantly, and enjoy myself at "work" a good deal of the time. Downsides included a social life that went from great to essentially non-existent, otherwise interested girls being turned off by my lifestyle, and bad swings which left a way-more-than-bitter taste in my mouth. It also left me with a resume gap and less interest in getting a so-called real world job.

You personally sound like a winning player, with adequate bankroll and a good head for the game. Seems like you could pull it off. Be advised that it will not be as easy/enjoyable as you might think, and you will have long stretches where the money doesn't come as readily as you had expected. Also keep in mind that you will be hurting chances for future employment by taking yourself out of the job market, and may hurt yourself when it comes to things like verifying income for credit, mortgages, etc (the logical assumption here is that you will not be declaring any winnings). My advice would be not to do this, at least not yet, as you can continue to have your irritating job (welcome to the club, the job market isn't kind to the post-college crowd), and play on the side. If you can pickup a couple of hundred a session, more power to you. Good luck in whatever option you choose.

Re: I SAY BUSTO IN A SIX MONTHS!!!!
 

And then there's always the other goofy option - a new full time job, with location constrained by poker availability (there's plenty of poker cities). Its not like you were ever going to work in your current job for forty years.

If changing jobs produces a temporary unemployed state (a month or two), poker is available and would give a good taste of full-time cards life with less risk.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

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Make sure you invest regularly in a high paying savings account........PAY YOURSELF MONTHLY.

When you reach your mid 40's you will have a nice nest egg.

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Someones been reading "Rich dad poor dad".
I think OP has other considerations than what to do with the spare cash.
The big question actually is, if there will be any spare cash.
On another note, I also think this going pro sceme sounds better than most.

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

is everyone drunk today?

Re: Quitting my crap job to grind 2/5+ live??
 

[ QUOTE ]
is everyone drunk today?

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lol I wish