Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

Bellagio 10/20, 9-Handed

Villian is basically unknown. Seems like the normal middle-age Bellagio 10/20 type. Relevant stacks are about 2300.

We did play a pot that I guess is somewhat relevant because neither one of us slowplayed. He bet the flop with a straight draw and I called with the same draw, we both hit the nuts on the turn and he led, I raised, he pushed, I called obv and chop chop.

Hero has J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in hijack.

Preflop
Hero opens to 80, BTN calls, SB calls, BB (villian) calls.

Flop (320): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 240, BTN folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn (800): 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB checks, Hero checks quick.

River (800): 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB checks, Hero bets 440, BB raises to 1440, Hero...

Woah, where did that come from? I checked the turn because I felt a river bet was better than a turn bet for getting value, and now, wtf?

Getting about 2.7:1 on the call.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

isnt river bet pretty thin? I'd either check behind or i call the checkraise. Your line looks pretty weak so he might be bluffing here especially with the history. Also i am fish dont take this seriously.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

I think your check on the turn is fine, but you wouldn't be faced with this decision if you bet 2/3 of the pot on the turn. It's a really tough spot but I think you should fold.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

wow this is an easy fold. river bet is standard.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

I fold. What does he call the flop with and bluff river? 56, 66-88 wouldnt turn their hand into a bluff. He could have taken this line with a gutter or 55 or mayyybe a slowplayed overpair. Plus given his description I don't think this guy will be c/r bluffing the river too often at all.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

fold and its not close.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

dude dont check quick on the turn, thats giving up too much.

given that, i might call the river c/r, because he's not really representing anything except some sort of last-ditch effort bluff. does he expect you to bet the river most of the time, or is checkbehind normally your standard play in this spot with most of your range, including whiffed overs and weakish pairs?

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

I bet the turn, river is fold obv

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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does he expect you to bet the river most of the time, or is checkbehind normally your standard play in this spot with most of your range, including whiffed overs and weakish pairs?

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I would normally check but he doesn't know that.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

why did you bet so small on the river? it looks so weak that i think you have to call the CR.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

I dunno...some of the best bluffs I make are on the river countering obvious defensive/blocking bets...in fact those that play regularly with me have used that against me by leading weak with strong holdings on every river where I have position and ive had to tame it down a bit but for awhile it was INSANELY profitable and still is when a new player with a predictable style comes in the game.

That being said...if you have no other read I might lean towards folding...probably need more of a read here..or something physical to call.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

Thanks for the replies everyone.

My immediate reaction was the same thing DJ Sensei and some others have said - he's not really representing anything, so if I'm going to value bet, I probably have to call the raise. I called very quickly without much thought and got showed 44 for a boat.

In hindsight, while I still feel his line doesn't represent a big hand, there aren't a whole lot of hands he gets to the river with that he thinks "omg I have to bluff now." If he has a mid pair, he's calling or folding, not bluff raising. The vast majority of players in the game aren't tricky enough to bluff c/r the river, so I think I can safely fold this in the future.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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dude dont check quick on the turn, thats giving up too much.

given that, i might call the river c/r, because he's not really representing anything except some sort of last-ditch effort bluff. does he expect you to bet the river most of the time, or is checkbehind normally your standard play in this spot with most of your range, including whiffed overs and weakish pairs?

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55, A2, 67

but i prolly call it.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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I called very quickly without much thought and got showed 44 for a boat.

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if someone is able to check a set thrice good for them. i know i cant!

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

anyone who thinks river isn't an auto-fold hasn't played the bellagio 10/20 game. or hasn't played live period. easy easy fold

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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anyone who thinks river isn't an auto-fold hasn't played the bellagio 10/20 game. or hasn't played live period. easy easy fold

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ive done both, and i dont agree, hardly an easy fold. it's probably a fold, but that normally doesnt stop me from calling anyway.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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anyone who thinks river isn't an auto-fold hasn't played the bellagio 10/20 game. or hasn't played live period. easy easy fold

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Agree. I never ever call here.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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anyone who thinks river isn't an auto-fold hasn't played the bellagio 10/20 game. or hasn't played live period. easy easy fold

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I play a ton live at right around these limits but only in Vegas 3-4 times a year for a week or so.

Im also not a huge fan of the Bellagio games at this limits(rough lineups) or the Bellagio as a whole really anymore.

I already said id lean towards folding without a strong read or tell...but I dont think this is an auto-fold without alot of experience playing the opponent.

Like I said I probably end up mucking it...like the vast majority of the time.

Is the 10-20 that predictable at the bellagio..\
(I ask because im going in 4 weeks and might take a shot in that game even though it isnt THAT live imho)

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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Is the 10-20 that predictable at the bellagio..\

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I've only played there four times, but from what I've found there are A LOT of regulars that play tight, solid and very straightfoward. They will adjust depending on their opponent, but they aren't going to be pulling moves like river check/raise bluffs.

There are some aggressive players that can really play, but they're the minority.

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

how is anybody advocating a call? basic handreading..?

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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I bet the turn, river is fold obv

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Uberstandard check?

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

cb river and you do not have a problem

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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anyone who thinks river isn't an auto-fold hasn't played the bellagio 10/20 game. or hasn't played live period. easy easy fold

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Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

those of u saying its ez fold at bellagio, what would you do if it was commerce?

Re: Live 10/20, surprising river check/raise
 

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those of u saying its ez fold at bellagio, what would you do if it was commerce?

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those of u saying its ez fold at bellagio, what would you do if it was commerce?

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was there this weekend. at commerce you push and get called by 65. ;-)

i fold unless he gives me a reason to call (physical tell or major history). most players at that level have a tough time making huge bluffs then staying cool while you're thinking, unlike 20-40 / 25-50.

i like checking, betting $180-ish for value and to induce a bluff, or betting $800-ish on that river depending on opponent and recent history, but would only rarely bet half pot. also fwiw i've also made many a $100 value bet there against nonaggro opponents and gotten called by ace high or worse a ridiculous percentage of the time.