I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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Commerce 20. Everybody is loose, everybody is fairly passive, everybody is bad, but nobody is completely retarded.

I'm under the gun and because I've raised 3 of the last 4 hands and because it's a loose passive table where a lot of pots are multiway for 1 bet and because I don't feel like folding or raising, I decide to do the rare open limp, and I do it with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Anyway shut up about preflop; it's close and it doesn't matter and it's the least interesting of many decisions in the hand.

So everyone else limps too, and we take the flop 7 ways for one bet.

Flop comes J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Blinds check, I bet, EP calls, MP raises, button cold-calls, others fold, I call, EP calls.

Turn is 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I bet, EP calls, MP calls, button calls.

River is 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check, EP checks, MP checks, button bets, I raise...

All the bolded decisions could have been done differently. Was I 0/4? 1/4?

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

PJ,

I like the way you wrote this up.

I like the flop call. Your position isn't very good, and your hand isn't very big. Also, the pot isn't big enough to just WAR over it IMO. Furthermore, a fair amount of people are saying they like their hand, especially the raiser. The turn card will drastically affect your equity. I like keeping the pot small so we can confidently CF gross turns or lead good ones depending on the action and what comes off

Turn bet: Ok, this is a great card for us. We need to lead here, because our hand is often best, and if it isn't, then we have an overlay with the likely callers in between.

River: lead here PLEASE.
Once button bets though, I think you should call. You have a nice chance for an overcall behind you, and button might not call your CR.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

imo everything is fine but the river. bet that [censored].

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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imo everything is fine but the river. bet that [censored].


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what about the CR? I think going for overcalls has better value

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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River: lead here PLEASE.
Once button bets though, I think you should call. You have a nice chance for an overcall behind you, and button might not call your CR.

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You may be right about leading, but think about this some more. Given their flop and turn play, don't their hands look a lot like missed draws? T8, QT, and diamond-draws make up a HUGE part of their range in my opinion. But maybe one of the 3 of them has a made hand and my best bet is the flop raiser -- MP. So if I check to him I might get a call from button and how can he fold to a checkraise in such a big pot? So I checked. Oops, nobody bet until the button.

Now that that happened, time to reevaluate. EP and MP both had a chance to bet when I "gave up" on the river. They didn't like their hand enough to do so. I think it's more likely that button now has a made hand and the others have the QT/T8/diamonds range, so I'd rather get a call from button than see the other 2 fold anyway.

At least that was my thinking. My flush is really really well hidden. And these opponents are too passive to raise 2 pair (or worse) on this river so I'm never getting the chance to 3-bet here if I lead. At best I think I get 1BB from someone along with 2 folds from the missed draws. Checkraising should get me 2BBs at least, if not one more from a caller between me and the bettor.

But since I was so unsure about this and playing it fairly fast (I didn't sit there and tank on every decision to go through these thoughts), I could very well have played this real bad.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

I agree. It's nice that the c/r worked but I wouldn;t expect it to that even even with 3 opponents still in the hand especially given that you describned the game as passive.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

Against fairly passive and bad, I prefer to hit them over the head with a hammer, than to try to confuse them when they won't really be thinking all that much anyway. You didn't 3-bet the flop but then bet out on the turn when, if you were behind on the flop, you were still behind on the turn. While EP and MP's most likely hands are draws, who knows with these passive guys, I'd bet out on the river looking for as many calls as possible.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

Hey Joker,

Its limit, bet your top pair all the way through, especially when you hit a back door flush on the river. It's not worth giving any opponent a free ride anywhere in this hand.

Your early limp was truly brilliant. I can't believe you actually conceived of that play in this instance. Once you limped that brought in seven customers behind you to get that you a monster payoff. Now you have all you can eat buffet money for a year.

Lucky for you to get in a sucessful check raise on the river.

Hats off to Private Joker!!!

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

I think I would try to c/r the flop here and try to iso a lp bet since our hand could be vunerable to oc's on the turn.

I like the rest though.

nh sir.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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At best I think I get 1BB from someone along with 2 folds from the missed draws. Checkraising should get me 2BBs at least, if not one more from a caller between me and the bettor.

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I see it the other way around. A leading bet looks normal, nobody will suspect you have the flush and you will get calls with top pair or better (and if your lucky you will get raised).

As played raising will net you only an extra bet usually because you just turned your hand over for the monster that it is, not sure why you expect 2 BB here (did you mean the button bet and a call?). Although its not as good as betting the river, I wonder if as played if your better off just calling rather than raising, it might be more profitable.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

I still think you should lead the river here. You described your opponents as loose so they certainly could be in there with draws and may just fold to your river bet, however, you also described them as passive which means they may have made hands and are just calling down and hoping they have a winner, but may not bet the river. If you are lucky someone may have rivered a big hand and raise you since they certainly won't put you on a flush. There is no gaurantee that someone will bet the river nor is there a gaurantee were that bet will come from. I believe that absent any great reads betting out here will make you more money in the long run.

The rest of the hand was played well.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

I think everything is fine but the river (like most other posters). Your hand looks like a J, and it's not likely MP has a big J (no raise preflop), so he may check down a bad Jack. If he has a flush draw, he's not going to bet anyway, so your best bet to collect anything is to bet when OOP. If you get raised, even better.

The main problem with checking the river, is that there's probably a 50% chance nobody bets and it gets checked through. If you bet, I think your odds are higher that it will either get called or raised.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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Against fairly passive and bad, I prefer to hit them over the head with a hammer, than to try to confuse them when they won't really be thinking all that much anyway. You didn't 3-bet the flop but then bet out on the turn when, if you were behind on the flop, you were still behind on the turn. While EP and MP's most likely hands are draws, who knows with these passive guys, I'd bet out on the river looking for as many calls as possible.

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andyfoxisright

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

One thing I neglected to mention in my original post is that passive and bad will often check a hand on the river when a 3rd suited card comes where they would crying call a bet. That's because checking is a safe play, whereas folding to a bet sacrifices the pot.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

The whole thing looks fine to me except (as others have said) the river check. However, while reading thru your post a couple of times, I started to get the sense that you felt that someone would bet the river for you. If that is why you were willing to chance it getting checked thru then good play in my book. I also think the river c/r is fine because it doesn't look like you're getting any overcalls.

Edit to add:

That's a very good point Andy is making. You've really got to have a strong feeling that someone will bet to try for that river c/r.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

This is a draw heavy flop. You may be against a straight and a flush draw. I would re-raise on the flop to get EP to drop with a gutshot if thats what he has. Also, if he calls its extra money while you are possibly/likely ahead.

The river, like everybody else I would bet out. Your flush is disguised by your previous flop and turn bets. You may get raised if indeed you were behind on the flop.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

Bleh.

Preflop is not just fine, it's correct given your description of the situation. On the flop I would 3bet, especially if you're going to donk that type of turn card. Either you think you're ahead or you don't. The turn card gives you outs but it doesn't put you in the lead.

Then on the river your check-raise is bizarre. First of all, there's a good chance it gets checked through, because that's what passive people do on rivers. And second, even if it does get bet it almost certainly isn't going to from the guy to your left, so you'll be checkraising out potential callers. One opponent for two bets isn't any better for you than two opponents for one bet.

You got pretty fancy in this pot, which isn't often a good thing when out of position against donkeys.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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passive and bad will often check a hand on the river when a 3rd suited card comes where they would crying call a bet. That's because checking is a safe play, whereas folding to a bet sacrifices the pot.

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This is wonderful advice...

I may make it to Commerce this w/e. Anybody going to be around?

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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Preflop is not just fine, it's correct given your description of the situation.

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agreed, its a standard limp if the table conditions are right. In this case it sounds like its perfect.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

One comment about my stop-n-go on the flop and turn: I was thinking if I 3-bet the flop, it would tie everyone to the pot, and anyway one pair wasn't a great holding on this highly coordinated flop -- therefore the draws have as much equity in this pot as I do (especially if the diamond draws have overcards). I thought if I waited to see the turn, I could slow down if a diamond, K, or 7 showed up, otherwise I could ramp back up and bet it if a safe card showed. Not 3-betting reduced the pot by 2BBs at least, making it unprofitable for gutshots to call the turn.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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PJ,

I like the way you wrote this up.

I like the flop call. Your position isn't very good, and your hand isn't very big. Also, the pot isn't big enough to just WAR over it IMO. Furthermore, a fair amount of people are saying they like their hand, especially the raiser. The turn card will drastically affect your equity. I like keeping the pot small so we can confidently CF gross turns or lead good ones depending on the action and what comes off

Turn bet: Ok, this is a great card for us. We need to lead here, because our hand is often best, and if it isn't, then we have an overlay with the likely callers in between.

River: lead here PLEASE.
Once button bets though, I think you should call. You have a nice chance for an overcall behind you, and button might not call your CR.

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I also like leading the river. I think you will collect two bets almost as often, by getting two callers rather than raising and getting an extra bet out of one guy. Plus you avoid it going check, check, check behind you.

Of course, I've all but given up going for river check raises, convinced that I miss more bets than I gain.

I don't know why PJ questions his turn bet. Top pair, with a flush draw?

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

I've said this before, and I know people don't believe me, but people get tied to the pot more in the 20-40 when the pot is smaller. That is, 3-betting makes them think you've got a big hand and they're more likely to fold to a turn bet than if you just called. You know what's profitable or unprofitable to call the turn, they don't.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

Andy,

What you're describing is very sound reasoning on their part.

You DO have to balance the considerations of pot odds vs. betting action.

Hold'em is a game of balance!

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

I like the flop and turn. The river bricks off too many draws to check methinks.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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The river bricks off too many draws to check methinks.

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what does this mean?

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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what does this mean?

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he means the river didn't make anyone else a 2nd best hand like 2 pair or a straight

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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what does this mean?

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he means the river didn't make anyone else a 2nd best hand like 2 pair or a straight

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ok. well doesn't that make the river more of a check, as no one can call a bet? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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ok. well doesn't that make the river more of a check, as no one can call a bet?


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Right. He is saying that the river is bad to check.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

PJ,

Dude nailed it, you got too fancy here. You got way too cerebral for your opponents. Stick with gas gas gas until you think you lose, then call down.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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ok. well doesn't that make the river more of a check, as no one can call a bet?


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Right. He is saying that the river is bad to check.

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huh? why is the river bad to check if no one has anything? if no one has anything, they cannot call our bet. so, the only way to get money into the pot is to check and hope they bluff at it. am i missing something here?

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

people call way more then they bluff. Plus morons call even more. Plus maybe we get to 3bet, how awesome would that be?

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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people call way more then they bluff. Plus morons call even more. Plus maybe we get to 3bet, how awesome would that be?

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i think getting raised on this river given the nature of these guys would be bad news.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

You've become quite the pussycat in your old age. Getting four-bet on the river is bad news, but we can three-bet with confidence here imo

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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huh? why is the river bad to check if no one has anything? if no one has anything, they cannot call our bet. so, the only way to get money into the pot is to check and hope they bluff at it. am i missing something here?

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He is saying that you need to lead the river for value against hands that will call (like KQ etc), but not bet if you check, because you have shown aggression the whole time, you are gonna get it checked back to you by weaker queens (and sometimes KQ). If the river came off a straight card then it could easily make someone 2 pair or a set in which case we may get one or 2 people for 2 bets with a CR.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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huh? why is the river bad to check if no one has anything? if no one has anything, they cannot call our bet. so, the only way to get money into the pot is to check and hope they bluff at it. am i missing something here?

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He is saying that you need to lead the river for value against hands that will call (like KQ etc), but not bet if you check, because you have shown aggression the whole time, you are gonna get it checked back to you by weaker queens (and sometimes KQ). If the river came off a straight card then it could easily make someone 2 pair or a set in which case we may get one or 2 people for 2 bets with a CR.

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you think KQ is gonna call this river? what the hell???

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

Bob, weren't you arguing for betting the river earlier in the thread?

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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you think KQ is gonna call this river? what the hell???

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Sorry I meant KJ. I was posting as though we had paired our Q on the flop. OOps.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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One comment about my stop-n-go on the flop and turn: I was thinking if I 3-bet the flop, it would tie everyone to the pot, and anyway one pair wasn't a great holding on this highly coordinated flop -- therefore the draws have as much equity in this pot as I do (especially if the diamond draws have overcards). I thought if I waited to see the turn, I could slow down if a diamond, K, or 7 showed up, otherwise I could ramp back up and bet it if a safe card showed. Not 3-betting reduced the pot by 2BBs at least, making it unprofitable for gutshots to call the turn.

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At the same time, I don't want a Jack/Queen to drop on the turn and for me to be a huge dog and not know it until its 2-3 bets back to me.

I like 3 betting this draw heavy flop and finding out where I stand. If capped, I'd cc turn and lead/cr river pending the opponent.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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Bob, weren't you arguing for betting the river earlier in the thread?

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i do think it is a bet. that said, i thought the "bet cuz all the draws missed" logic was bad and needed to be exposed. the river is a bet, but is so because pairs will call, not because draws missed. if we knew they all had busted draws, it is 100% a check, unless there is a nut who will bluffraise the river.

Re: I make a lot of questionable decisions
 

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Bob, weren't you arguing for betting the river earlier in the thread?

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i do think it is a bet. that said, i thought the "bet cuz all the draws missed" logic was bad and needed to be exposed. the river is a bet, but is so because pairs will call, not because draws missed. if we knew they all had busted draws, it is 100% a check, unless there is a nut who will bluffraise the river.

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Who said they all had busted draws? The idea is that no one has better than a medium strength hand, and those handranges tend to check behind in live games.