Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

Recently LFTV went quite deep in the second chance WCOOP short handed event.

Here's the Link:

http://www.pokerxfactor.com/HA84095/LFTV%206%20max/8550

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

I watched the first 100 so far.

I'm interested in your thought process behind attempting a bluff in hand 25 vs this player - I don't have any knowledge of this guys game, just saw hand 6 which makes me not want to try a cr bluff.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

[ QUOTE ]
I watched the first 100 so far.

I'm interested in your thought process behind attempting a bluff in hand 25 vs this player - I don't have any knowledge of this guys game, just saw hand 6 which makes me not want to try a cr bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I just decided he had an 8 between only calling flop and then betting so small on the turn and my instinct was to make him fold it. I think I c-r'ed too small for that purpose though, for this or any player. I'm also pretty sure I hadn't seen/processed that hand with gank where he called a similar turn raise w/ middle pair on a worse board for middle pair.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

Everyone,

One of the reasons I wanted Bond to post this one is it's like the tenth time I've gone deep in something fairly big and finished like 8th-20th. Part of the problem is I always make it to the final 25 or whatever with a small to medium stack and then lose a flip and busto. I don't know why that is, and in smaller tournaments, both buyin and field size, I usually get to final tables with big stacks.

Anyway, I wanted people who usually have big stacks when they make it deep to look for any spots that I miss in the final couple hours.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

I really hope you were sitting out on hand 47.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really hope you were sitting out on hand 47.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh...

PokerStars Game #12058111715: Tournament #70002001, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/09/14 - 17:46:26 (ET)
Table '70002001 4' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: javahound (4910 in chips)
Seat 3: gank (2120 in chips)
Seat 4: AnalAce (2735 in chips)
Seat 5: Entropy xx (2305 in chips)
Seat 6: bonzo9876 (5930 in chips)
javahound: posts small blind 25
gank: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Entropy xx [Qh Kc]
AnalAce: folds
Entropy xx has timed out
Entropy xx: folds
Entropy xx is sitting out
bonzo9876: folds
Entropy xx has returned
javahound: calls 25
gank: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ts 5c Ah]
javahound: checks
gank: checks
*** TURN *** [Ts 5c Ah] [Tc]
javahound: checks
gank: checks
*** RIVER *** [Ts 5c Ah Tc] [Qs]
javahound: checks
gank: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
javahound: shows [Kd 9s] (a pair of Tens)
gank: shows [5d 6s] (two pair, Tens and Fives)
gank collected 100 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 100 | Rake 0
Board [Ts 5c Ah Tc Qs]
Seat 2: javahound (small blind) showed [Kd 9s] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 3: gank (big blind) showed [5d 6s] and won (100) with two pair, Tens and Fives
Seat 4: AnalAce folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Entropy xx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: bonzo9876 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)


I think there was one other hand like this. My internet connection was bad for part of the day.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

For the most part, you played too tight for my liking, but fine, that's your style. Here are the hands I really had problems with:

177: Shove all day. You are so far ahead of his range.
234: Call all-in.
272: Let's see. 13 + .5 + .4 + .8 +2.2 = 16.9k in the pot, 12.6k to call. Haven't been watching his play, but I wouldn't fold unless he's a super super nit. Against lots of players, you are actually ahead of their range here. It's pretty hard to be far behind their range with only 15x BB. I would call.
278: Flipping your hand face up and then annoucning all-in would be a better play than folding. I'd shove despite having over 10x BB.
283: Reshove.
293: Another hand where you could profitably flip your hand face up and then move all-in. Folding in these spots is criminal.
314: Way too weak. You could reraise preflop. YOu could lead the flop. You could check call. Check raise. All better than the way you played it IMO.
415: Another profitable face up shove spot. I would raise and call a reraise all-in.

Edit: Other than this, you missed a bunch of steal spots I would take, and one or two resteal spots, but like I said above, those are style issues.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

Are you sure about the 22 hand? Especially the faceup part. It's not just more than 10bb, it's 19 and all three behind me cover. Someone has a bigger pair 17% of the time.

The 55 hand, there had been some chat about the series of reshoves. There was ~ zero chance rabscuttle was folding, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have raised without a hand. Shoving anyway is probably the exact type of thing that I need to do to accumulate chips.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

Justin (and others), what do you think about hands 149 and 378?

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

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Justin (and others), what do you think about hands 149 and 378?

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I don't like the turn bet in 149. It looks so weak. I wouldn't be surprised if you had the best hand even after the turn check raise.

Hand 378 is odd, and he could just have a draw, but I think a pair and a draw is more likely than that. I would fold like you did.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the most part, you played too tight for my liking, but fine, that's your style. Here are the hands I really had problems with:

177: Shove all day. You are so far ahead of his range.
would agree completely if he had opened for 3x or less. i probably still shove but think it's closer than you think
234: Call all-in. yea folding here is a crime.
272: Let's see. 13 + .5 + .4 + .8 +2.2 = 16.9k in the pot, 12.6k to call. Haven't been watching his play, but I wouldn't fold unless he's a super super nit. Against lots of players, you are actually ahead of their range here. It's pretty hard to be far behind their range with only 15x BB. I would call. agreed in 6 max no way u can fold this
278: Flipping your hand face up and then annoucning all-in would be a better play than folding. I'd shove despite having over 10x BB. ya i dont understand folding here. why not make a standard open? also what zj is saying about shoving is valid, but i think a standard open would be best.
283: Reshove. agreed
293: Another hand where you could profitably flip your hand face up and then move all-in. Folding in these spots is criminal.yea. whyyyyy do u wanna fold here. shove all day
314: Way too weak. You could reraise preflop. YOu could lead the flop. You could check call. Check raise. All better than the way you played it IMO. agree the hand was played too weak. personally i would rr preflop planning to call a shove
415: Another profitable face up shove spot. I would raise and call a reraise all-in. ya folding sucks here. i don't like raise/call either (obviously i'm not advocating raise/folding though). shoving is def superior imo. you can shove a pretty wide range here profitably.

Edit: Other than this, you missed a bunch of steal spots I would take, and one or two resteal spots, but like I said above, those are style issues.

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Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

i did some math and you guys are right about 22 vs a reasonable calling range, and it's basically dead even if you turn it face up. I used to open shove too much and I've swong too far the other way.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

These are my comments without looking at other people's. In general, your play is nitty and not suited for 6-max. I found a lot more clear mistakes in this than the other PFXs posted in this forum.

I also went over ZeeJustin's comments and have no comment other than I agree with him on every point.

25. I don’t get the turn raise. Are you raising for value or bluffing?
70. I don’t like the cbet with this flop, hand, and position.
149. Half-pot bet and fold on the turn is bad. Preflop, maybe you need to just push or fold to the reraise.
185. Tight open fold of A7o OTB.
229. Awful open fold of Q4s in the SB with 6xBB.
230. I would push 65o on the button with 6xBB.
253. I realize big stack is in BB, but I still open push 42s on the button with 7.5xBB.
283. I would generally push 55 OTB versus CO raise.
294. Tight open fold of Q9s in CO. I know 13xBB is awkward, but just open pushing is cEV+, and you have other plays.
384. I don’t think you can fold KTo in the BB with 7xBB to button raise from big stack. I would stop and go.
389. Tight fold of 44 UTG 6-handed with 12xBB. I would just push.
401. Push QJs UTG 6-handed with 10.5xBB.
415. Tight fold of KTo OTB with 12xBB.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

Mostly agree with betgo, although most of my answers would be long and would include the word "depends" and... well... I'm lazy.

But Q4s in 229 is another "face up push" spot. Aweful fold. You just can't pass up hugely +ev spots like this, and yes, it is one (relative to the stack size at least).

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

a few comments

In 25 i read him for an 8 and was bluffing, it didn't work, should have raised more.

I don't like making marginal shoves with > 10bb, that is probably a leak.

The Q4 hand had to be a misclick or time out. I'm not that bad.

The K8 hand was on the bubble and I think that makes the fold correct. With that stack size and the payout structure, doubling up does not double my EV. That is also the reason I did not shove the 65 (I remember that hand but not the Q4 hand before it. I don't know what happened there because I would shove it for sure).

The ATo BB hand, gank's 4x raise was the reason I folded; I don't think it's a very good reason, but it was the reason at the time. Agree that I'm ahead of his range and should shove.

I said this once above but given history (including chat) I was positive that I would be called in that 55 hand, and that he was raising the range that he wanted to call a shove with, against which 55 is -EV (it would be wrong to call an open shove). I probably can't be certain enough about that not to shove, however.

betgo, your tone and "nitty and not suited for 6-max" is pretty absurd, especially from someone who whines about the tone of others toward him. I do well in six max cash games. I also hold my tongue for a lot of the stupid [censored] you post. There's a difference between constructive criticism and being a jackass. That said, thank you for the substance of your comments, especially on the shoves. I've done a decent amount of push/fold math, but so have you and I think you're right on nearly all of them.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

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betgo, your tone and "nitty and not suited for 6-max" is pretty absurd, especially from someone who whines about the tone of others toward him. I do well in six max cash games. I also hold my tongue for a lot of the stupid [censored] you post. that said, thanks for the comments, especially on the shoves. I've done a decent amount of push/fold math, but so have you and I think you're right on nearly all of them.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't mean to be nasty, but that is what I thought, although maybe I was too direct. I appologize if you found the tone offensive. I think Zeejustin's general and specific comments were along the same lines.

6-max cash games are different from 6-max MTTs and there are a lot of situations where you need to push or whatever.

There were also a lot of tight folds to resteals and tight folds in steal situations that I didn't mention because they were not that clearcut.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

ok betgo, i want to be careful about seeming defensive; I mostly agree with your comments and the ones I'm not sure about I'll do the math and find out. I'm better at push/folding under 10bb and for much of this lategame i was between 10 and 20.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

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6-max cash games are different from 6-max MTTs and there are a lot of situations where you need to push or whatever.

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This got me thinking, so I checked pokertracker.

Generally, I run at ~20/16-22/17 in six max cash. In this tournament I ran at 17/15. In two other six max tourneys I went deep in (a 55 and a 77), I was at 18/16 and 19/16. I don't want to get into detail about my opening ranges in the different positions in cash, but I looked at the position-by-position vpip/pfr stats and nearly all of the difference comes from BN and CO.

This makes some sense, because with 15ish BB effective the LP open raiser doesn't have position as a weapon against 3 betting, like he does in a cash game. Being OOP in threebet pots + the possibility of being 4bet discourages threebets in cash games relative to mtts, which allows you to open more liberally in late position in cash games. Also, being shallower means you can't flat call as often, past the early stages. On the other hand, there are antes in mtts.

So my 6max mtt vpip should be higher than it is. I think this all means I need to either raise/call more, raise/fold more, or resteal more. Probably all three. I mean, missing a few mathematically correct open shoves is one thing, but I don't think it's the main leak.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

In MTT play, you need to fight for the blinds and antes much more than in cash games. It's not a matter of statistics. You just weren't playing aggressively enough, particularly preflop.

Also, many of the open pushes you missed were not close, so this was not insignificant. With >10xBB, there were other ways to play some of the hands, but pushing was often better than open folding.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

The statistics are a reflection of preflop aggression. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

////

Mainly what I'm getting at is that when ZJ says this:

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Edit: Other than this, you missed a bunch of steal spots I would take, and one or two resteal spots, but like I said above, those are style issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think those are actually more than style issues, and that I need to get better at finding those spots.

I'm saying the push/fold stuff is insignificant not because of the degree of the mistake but because it's easy to fix.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

A couple other hands not already mentioned...

380 - T7s in SB with 7.5bb. This seems good enough to shove, no?
386 - Question...we have A7o and 5bb, the active big stack raises UTG (only 5 handed), what Aces are we going to go with in this spot? I personally would have went with this.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Justin (and others), what do you think about hands 149 and 378?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the turn bet in 149. It looks so weak. I wouldn't be surprised if you had the best hand even after the turn check raise.

Hand 378 is odd, and he could just have a draw, but I think a pair and a draw is more likely than that. I would fold like you did.

Re: Official review thread, LearnedfromTV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Justin (and others), what do you think about hands 149 and 378?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the turn bet in 149. It looks so weak. I wouldn't be surprised if you had the best hand even after the turn check raise.

Hand 378 is odd, and he could just have a draw, but I think a pair and a draw is more likely than that. I would fold like you did.