The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

So,

I'm convinced that most people would be very hard pressed to tell the difference (or have a preference) between a $10 bottle of wine and a $50 bottle.

I'm looking to have a blind-wine tasting, and see just what works out. Future challenges may be created for beer or vodka.

Please post suggestions for this tasting in the following price ranges:

- Bottles ~ $1-$7
- Bottles ~ $8-$15
- Bottles ~ $15-20
- Bottles ~ $20-50

(or suggest better ranges) I chose these ranges because my hypothesis is that you rarely need to spend more than $15 on a bottle of wine.

Also, what type of wine should I go with? I'm thinking some type of Cab to make things easiest. I'd preferably like to keep everything from a similar region.

Franzia box-wine will obviously be included in hopes of someone choosing it as their favorite. Mason is no longer in DC, or this would be a lock.

It would also be cool if I can get everything from one store - like a CostCo or similar.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

wegmans

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

Bryan: A roommate actually told me that wegman's has some kind of wine-tasting room where you can buy wine by the glass.

This might be a good venue to do this, so I don't have to buy a ton of different wines.

Could you elaborate?

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

Ya you work right by Wegmans, and they have a huge wine selection for a retail grocery store.

If they don't meet your expectations (I'm sure they will) You could go with Total Wine, or Costco. Costco obviously being cheaper, but Total Wine you might be able to pick up some more obscure bottles.

Trader Joe's also has a decent wine selection and pretty knowledgeable staff that could help you find something. (Wegman's has a knowledgeable staff as well)

Also, stay away from the Franzia Sangria.

That stuff is terrible.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

Wegman's has wine tastings on a certain day of the week, I'm not sure which day it is tho, but I'm sure you could easily find this information.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

^^^^

The wine store at that Wegmans is awesome and they will help you out.


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Also, stay away from the Franzia Sangria.

That stuff is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFHeresy

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

I can't believe you know what Wegman's I speak about and you and I never partied and got down when you lived on the right coast.

(I hear you kiss men which is a bonus of course)

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

I'm down for this, and might even bring some wines above $15 that are worth it...

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm convinced that most people would be very hard pressed to tell the difference (or have a preference) between a $10 bottle of wine and a $50 bottle.


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Define "most people". If you mean random drinkers who really don't drink wine that often, maybe. But anyone who drinks wine at all on a regular basis will be able to tell (assuming that the wines chosen have a corrolation between price and taste. There are plenty of not-tasty $30 wines).

I'd have wider price ranges, btw.
0-15
15-25
25-40
40-60
60+

You may be better off doing a tasting by Wine Spectator score, or something similar to best try and make it "good wines" vs. "crappy wines".

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

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my hypothesis is that you never need to spend more than $15 on a bottle of wine.

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This is true if you never learn to tell the difference. But being uneducated about the difference is not the same as "there is no difference".

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

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I can't believe you know what Wegman's I speak about and you and I never partied and got down when you lived on the right coast.

(I hear you kiss men which is a bonus of course)

[/ QUOTE ]

i think we realized that we lived ~5 minutes apart after i moved. i lived down the street from that wegmans, across the street from the safeway/shopping mall.

90% of the time i was too lazy to go to the wegmans [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

ya i lived about 2 mins from the wegmans and I only shopped there [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Now I live about 10 minutes away and rarely go there.

Such a huge beat I moved so far away [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

Brag: It's a 2 minute drive from my work. 14" sub sandwich FTW.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

Z, are you looking for wines in the price range that will "prove your point" or are you looking for "representative" wines at each price range? Here I've tried to list some interesting series of wines to taste. Prices may or may not fit exactly into a preconceived range but they will move "up the ladder" in price, and possibly in quality. Availability should be across Costco, Sam's Club, CostPlus World Market, Trader Joe's, BevMo, grocery stores and the like. In other words you may have to do some shopping but these are intended to be mass market choices and easy to find. Feel free to modify according to what is available in your area.

Sparkling wine:
Level 1: something cheap and nasty like Tott's or Cook's
Level 2: Korbel Brut and Korbel Natural (hint, the Brut is the "proper" placement, the Natural is actually a step up)
Level 3: Roederer Estate NV Brut or a similarly priced Domaine Chandon bottling or one of the $15-20 Champagnes found at Trader Joe's.
Level 4: If you want to prove your point of not needing to pay more, Veuve Cliquot Yellow Label is the ticket here and can be purchased anywhere. I doubt you'll find it to be any better than the Level 3 bottle. If you actually want a better bottle just about any real French Champagne between $30 and $50 will do other than Yellow Label. There's a ton of them if you take the time to look.

Zinfandel:
Level 1: Ravenswood Vintner's Blend
Level 2: Rancho Zabaco Dancing Bull or something in that price range
Level 3: The next step up to a $12-17 Zinfandel, Rancho Zabaco often has something in this line or you'll see other ones in one of the Costco bins
Level 4: Ridge Geyserville, Lytton Springs or similar (you may have to look a little for this one but BevMos should have it)

Merlot:
Level 1: 2 Buck Chuck
Level 2/3: Barefoot, Christian Moueix, Yellow Tail, etc. depending on pricing
Level 4: Honestly not sure here since I don't drink the stuff.

Syrah/Shiraz:
Level 1: 2 Buck Chuck
Level 2: Yellow Tail/Greg Norman
Level 3/4: You may have to search a little for various wines in the right price range. For Aussies Penfolds, d'Arenberg, Rosemount, Marquis Phillips and others are solid choices and you'll need to do a bit of research since these producers all have graduated pricing in their lines.

Chardonnay:
Level 1: 2 Buck Chuck
Level 2: Barefoot, Kendall-Jackson Vintner's reserve
Level 3: Kendall Jackson Grand Reserve
Level 4: Grgich or some other wine in the right range.

Hopefully these ideas will help.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

OrigamiSensei -

You left out the White Zinfandel category

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

I'm a very novice wine drinker, but based on my limited experience, I'm pretty damn sure I could tell the difference. Wine seems to be one of those things where the quality/price is pretty obvious from jump.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

Origami:

No, I'm not looking to "prove my point". I'm sure there are plenty of crappy expensive wines out there, but great ones also. I'd like to avoid the former and find the latter.

It's mostly a fun project for wine amateurs like myself to try different wines in different price categories, and decide which suits us best.

Thanks for the recommendations.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

Also FWIW, I've tried Barefoot's Chardonnay and Cab. The cab was ok, I thought the chardonnay was pretty bad.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

once you hit ~$15/bottle or so you i would imagine you probably won't be able to pick out which one costs more unless you have experience in wine tasting

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

Origami has some good suggestions.....I think Yellowtail is one of the better wines for the $$$$$

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

I'm not exactly a wine connoisseur but I'm pretty sure I could distinguish between a $10 bottle and $50 dollar bottle, assuming the $50 bottle was not a rip off.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

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I'm not exactly a wine connoisseur but I'm pretty sure I could distinguish between a $10 bottle and $50 dollar bottle, assuming the $50 bottle was not a rip off.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll find out... results will follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

I'd be more then game for this. Granted I live in chicago, so if any Chi Town 2p2ers want to bear witness to me doing this I'd be game. I would buy the wines themselves and we'd have to do it all in one varietal, of which the three easiest would be chardonnay, syrah/shiraz, and cab or cab based blends.

Now, I wouldn't go as far as to straight up identify each wine, but give a point score for each of them based on the tradition Robert Parker point scale.

I'd also choose which wines I drink since I'd be the one forking out the cash to do this. I'd also probably add in another bracket so that instead of a straight 20-50 bracket, it'd be more like 20-35 and 36-60(since I'd be paying, I'd want to run it up to 60 as I have a few in mind that are slightly over 50 for this) as there can be a massive difference between a $38 wine and a $21 wine

like I said, I'm down for this and would probably even pull a few from my own collection for this experiment. I'm also a person who has little preconcieved notions and would promise not to look at the Cellar Tracker scores before doing this

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

Z: I was trying to find out if there was an axe to grind or if it was an educational project. Sounds like the latter, and that's a good thing. There's far too many people in the wine world who want to shove their preconceived notions down other people's throats and one of the big ones is price. I know people who insist you have to spend at least x number of dollars to get a good bottle of wine (which is crap) and others who claim no wine is worth more than x dollars (which is also crap). The key is to explore and find out for yourself your comfort ranges in pricing and what your tastes are.

I also thought of a lineup for Cabernet:
Level 1: 2 Buck Chuck
Level 2: Gallo of Sonoma Cab (the regular $10 bottling and something that in a number of years has been surprisingly good for the money)
Level 3: Something like Frei Brothers, Fransiscan, Simi (I think they run in the $14-21 range) McManis may be somewhere in here and is reputed to be decent stuff
Level 4: The regular bottling from Heitz or Chateau Montelena, should be in the $30-45 range.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not exactly a wine connoisseur but I'm pretty sure I could distinguish between a $10 bottle and $50 dollar bottle, assuming the $50 bottle was not a rip off.

[/ QUOTE ]
Neither am I, so maybe this is a naive question. But this isn't something like generic Frosted Flakes, where competitors try to make the cereal taste like Kellogs.

This is wine, where companies try to get specific flavors in a wine. You can have a huge difference between two $10 merlots just as easily as you can have a difference between a $10 and a $50 bottle. But in the end, isn't taste too subjective.

Isn't it possible that the bottler of the $10 wine tried to get specific flavors in their wine that you happen to like more than the bottler of the $50 wine?

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

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Isn't it possible that the bottler of the $10 wine tried to get specific flavors in their wine that you happen to like more than the bottler of the $50 wine?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is kind of my line of thinking as well... they flavors will just be so different that it'll be hard to judge one better than the other.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

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Isn't it possible that the bottler of the $10 wine tried to get specific flavors in their wine that you happen to like more than the bottler of the $50 wine?

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This is kind of my line of thinking as well... they flavors will just be so different that it'll be hard to judge one better than the other.

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i fully disagree. I was actually thinking about this this afternoon, granted if someone wants to do this with me, I'd want a good cross section, but there is a massive difference in the nose and taste of a yellowtail vs a top aussie shiraz. Same goes for a generic cali cab and something that is a screaming value like a turnbull(which is around 40).

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

[ QUOTE ]
So,

I'm convinced that most people would be very hard pressed to tell the difference (or have a preference) between a $10 bottle of wine and a $50 bottle.

I'm looking to have a blind-wine tasting, and see just what works out. Future challenges may be created for beer or vodka.

Please post suggestions for this tasting in the following price ranges:

- Bottles ~ $1-$7
- Bottles ~ $8-$15
- Bottles ~ $15-20
- Bottles ~ $20-50

(or suggest better ranges) I chose these ranges because my hypothesis is that you rarely need to spend more than $15 on a bottle of wine.

Also, what type of wine should I go with? I'm thinking some type of Cab to make things easiest. I'd preferably like to keep everything from a similar region.

Franzia box-wine will obviously be included in hopes of someone choosing it as their favorite. Mason is no longer in DC, or this would be a lock.

It would also be cool if I can get everything from one store - like a CostCo or similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't front on Fran, it's the [censored]. Sunset Blush FTW!

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not exactly a wine connoisseur but I'm pretty sure I could distinguish between a $10 bottle and $50 dollar bottle, assuming the $50 bottle was not a rip off.

[/ QUOTE ]
Neither am I, so maybe this is a naive question. But this isn't something like generic Frosted Flakes, where competitors try to make the cereal taste like Kellogs.

This is wine, where companies try to get specific flavors in a wine. You can have a huge difference between two $10 merlots just as easily as you can have a difference between a $10 and a $50 bottle. But in the end, isn't taste too subjective.

Isn't it possible that the bottler of the $10 wine tried to get specific flavors in their wine that you happen to like more than the bottler of the $50 wine?

[/ QUOTE ]
Your question points to the age-old "objective quality" vs. "subjective quality" debate, one that rages all too frequently among those of us who take our wine a little too seriously. I personally believe that appreciation of wine involves an acknowledgement that there are facets of both. I have tasted lots of wine at all sorts of price ranges and of varying levels of quality. I have had technically well-made wines that I hated and flawed wines I adored. Nonetheless there are things that have been agreed upon by wine lovers that tends to point to an objective level of quality.

Balance and complexity are two of those things. Does the wine meld together as a seamless whole in your mouth or is there some aspect about it that is jarring? Too much oak? Too acidic? Not acidic enough? Does it taste alcoholic and hot on the finish? Does the wine have a lot of things going on in your mouth when you drink it or is it monolithic and dominated by one aspect or flavor? Are there any off flavors or spoilage compounds? Issues in these areas point to problems with objective quality.

There are very real differences between less expensive bottles and more expensive bottles. The first and foremost contributor is the quality of the grapes. Some places grow better grapes than others, and some places could grow better grapes than they currently do if they would reduce crops and adopt better farming practices. Less expensive wines will often source their grapes from less desirable areas, the farmers will attempt to coax a large crop (which has the tendency to dilute the wine) and they may well use very industrialized farming practices with lots of chemical fertilizers, pesticides and the like.

There are also differences in the winemaking process itself. Instead of using oak barrels that sell for $700-1000 a pop a winemaker might just dump some oak chips into the wine for flavoring. Winemakers may make excessive use techniques such as fining and filtering, which help to ensure that no little beasties will ever go off in a bottle and spoil it, but also can strip the life out of a wine if not used judiciously. Some winemakers regard the process as a lab experiment rather than an art so the wine is made "by the numbers" rather than by the judgment of an artisan. It becomes a giant chem lab experiment where the acids, sugars, enzymes and yeasts are just so and intended to make a wine that tastes consistently the same from bottle to bottle and from vintage to vintage. I should note that one place this is accepted practice is in Champagne, where master blenders strive for a common house style year in and year out for their non-vintage blends and for some reason everybody feels this is okay, including me. Don't ask.

Less expensive wines work towards a consistent taste commensurate with the brand and tend to emphasize simple, obvious flavors. They often have a little bit of residual sugar so the wine is a touch off dry and they tend towards emphasizing simple, ripe fruit flavors. Chardonnay producers often put the wine through a process intended to soften the acids known as malolactic fermentation, which is what produces the buttery popcorn flavor that California Chardonnays are often known for.

Perhaps the following story will help to illustrate things. Note for those in the know - if you're thinking it's a thinly veiled brag, well, it is, but it's not that I was drinking that particular wine, it's that I have such wonderful and generous friends.

At a recent gathering one of my friends brought a 2001 Guigal La Turque. This is a $350-400 bottle of wine and basically around four times the price I'm willing to pay for a bottle even under special circumstances. I simply don't play in that league. Now understand I'm not a Syrah guy, I'm a Pinot guy, and I was prepared and maybe even hoping to be underwhelmed. One must keep in mind that we are drinking this wine at least ten or fifteen years earlier than we probably should, but that happens. In any case, the nose was very nice, very traditional and had some complexity. On the attack and mid-palate again it was very correct and proper with nice complexity. It was showing rather closed because the wine is so young. Excellent, but certainly not worth $400 to me personally. So far, so good - I didn't have to care about not being able to afford it, right? No, because when it was time to check out the finish the wine pretty much exploded. The finish was incredibly pure, complex and powerful, so beautiful, and it seemed like it lasted forever. And that's when the wine is in a stage of its life where it's not showing at its best. I was just blown away, and that's the moment when it becomes clear why someone would pay that crazy amount of money for a stupid bottle of wine.

The long-winded point I'm trying to make is that the differences can be very real. In my story the comparison was 40 to 400, but the same sort of thing applies to the 10/50 comparison. Sometimes you really do get what you pay for.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

z,

So your hypothesis is, "Some people have palates as sharp as bowling balls?" Obviously there's a difference between expensive wine and cheap wine, but whether people can tell, care, or have varying preferences just hinges on the person, and of course people are different.

I guess I just don't see the point of this. If the point is to find out what kind of wines you like and what your best value is, then great, that sounds like fun. But otherwise you're just asking best buddy Bill if the difference in quality between a $100 bottle and a $15 bottle is worth it to him. That's testing Bill, not the wine.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

I have a hard time telling anything on the first taste. But I can do a lot better comparing. I suspect a lot are going to fall into this category.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

I bring this wine to a lot of wine parties/potluck tastings: (Australia)

http://winelibrary.com/images/25102.jpg

It cost $20/bottle and usually wins are comes in top 3 for overall favorite.

Make sure you get the Cab Sav, the other grapes are now where near as good as this one from this vineyard.

All years have been good, currently drinking the 2004 as its the one on the shelf.

Santa Rita's (Chile) Cab Sav and Cab blends from Chile is also very good for a $20 wine.

Also look for South African wines from the Stellenbosh growing region, usually pretty good and cheap.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

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So,

I'm convinced that most people would be very hard pressed to tell the difference (or have a preference) between a $10 bottle of wine and a $50 bottle.

[/ QUOTE ]
Make this $5 to $50 and I'm with you. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


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I'm looking to have a blind-wine tasting, and see just what works out. Future challenges may be created for beer or vodka.

[/ QUOTE ]
This can be a real blast. One mistake I made at one of mike l.'s party was bringing one of my cheap wines at the wrong temperture. You want the playing field as level as possible.


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Franzia box-wine will obviously be included in hopes of someone choosing it as their favorite.

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You might want to also try a fairly decent boxed wine such as Black Box Wine. It's in the $20 range for a three liter box (compared to $10 for 5 liters of Franzia) which should be eqivalent to about $5 per bottle. Target also has cute little 3 liter boxes for about $15 that IMO are decent (and fit perfectly on the second shelf of the fridge). Of course to fairly (i.e., blindly) compete you would have to put the boxed wine and its competion in a decanter or perhaps transfer the contents of the box to a clean bottle (this may screw it up; I'm no expert).


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It would also be cool if I can get everything from one store - like a CostCo or similar.

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I haven't seen boxed wine at Costco but there is always hope [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

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Also, stay away from the Franzia Sangria.

That stuff is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]


It really is.

Re: The Franzia Challenge ( cheap wines vs. good wines )
 

For level 1, definitely try the Alice White shiraz. It's $5.99 a bottle where I get it (HI) & spanks a lot of much more expensive wines.

I drink wine often & will regularly splash out 20 or 30 for a bottle. I like to try different ones out at all various prices. AW shiraz is our house red currently.