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-   -   Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=503070)

Courtesy Flush 09-17-2007 02:27 PM

Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
I was playing at Oceans 11 last night when the following situation arose. I had two spewtards to my left who loved to raise trash pre-flop, so I limp/shoved with AQc and they both called me with 88 and K8. I missed the board and some old people at the other end of the table praised the 88 and commented on how "the best hand won." I know I shouldn't even say a word here, but I couldn't help myself and interjected that my hand was in fact best in that scenario. They all argued with me of course, but finally conceeded that I was ahead %-wise while still maintaining that 88 was the "best hand." I conintued to insist that AQc was the best hand because of the %, but they all agreed that 88 was "best" because of it's immediate ranking against AQ. This is when I realized we had different definitions of what makes the "best hand." I see where they are coming from, but it just doesn't seem right to me to label a hand that's behind as "best."

So my question is, what do you consider to be the "best" hand? The made hand or the one with the highest winning %?

ReptileHouse 09-17-2007 02:39 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
For me, best = has the greatest equity. (i.e., pokerstove it)

That is not the common definition, though. Most people consider it to be the hand that would win "right now."

Similar arguments over semantics occur when you start talking about the definition of "being ahead."

Mano 09-17-2007 02:40 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3114464
pokenum -h ac qc - kh 8h - 8c 8s
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Qc 585806 42.74 780573 56.94 4375 0.32 0.428
Kh 8h 324724 23.69 1016516 74.16 29514 2.15 0.247
8s 8c 430710 31.42 910530 66.43 29514 2.15 0.324

jeffnc 09-17-2007 02:45 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
[ QUOTE ]
So my question is, what do you consider to be the "best" hand? The made hand or the one with the highest winning %?

[/ QUOTE ]

The made hand is the best hand. Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether you should be putting all the money in with the best hand. It's pretty obvious that if you have K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and your opponent has 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he has the best hand, but he should fold if you move all-in (and the pot is small compared to the stack sizes.)

jeffnc 09-17-2007 02:46 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
[ QUOTE ]
Similar arguments over semantics occur when you start talking about the definition of "being ahead."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that one's a little trickier. "Being ahead" is often thought of as the percentage signs on the hands on TV.

Courtesy Flush 09-17-2007 02:51 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So my question is, what do you consider to be the "best" hand? The made hand or the one with the highest winning %?

[/ QUOTE ]

The made hand is the best hand. Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether you should be putting all the money in with the best hand. It's pretty obvious that if you have K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and your opponent has 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he has the best hand, but he should fold if you move all-in (and the pot is small compared to the stack sizes.)

[/ QUOTE ]

So the donks were right and I was wrong?

I feel so low.

AngusThermopyle 09-17-2007 02:53 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
If all the money is going in, the "best hand" is the one with the most equity. It doesn't matter if one hand is currently "ahead". You collect the pot after the River card, not before the Flop or on the Turn.

But even in your case, consider that AQc is a 47.6 to 52.4 dog vs 8h8d heads up.
What changes the numbers is the presence of the K8. So, if the K8 had mucked, and you were heads up, it would appear that the 88 was now the 'best hand', until you consider the dead cards (AQc is then a 53-47 favorite). But if you are going to do that, you have to ask everybody what they mucked.

Yads 09-17-2007 02:58 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
The best hand is the one that would win if no more cards were dealt.

ReptileHouse 09-17-2007 03:09 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
[ QUOTE ]
So the donks were right and I was wrong?

I feel so low.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more like, "There's no definitive ansewr, and this argument isn't going to be over anytime soon."

El_Hombre_Grande 09-17-2007 04:45 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
They are using the term "best hand" wrong. Its all the same heads up, but you weren't heads up. 88 is the "best hand," but its not favored to win in this situation, which of course makes the reference to "best hand" amusing.

Of course, maybe the donks have a keen sense of irony, I dunno.

PantsOnFire 09-17-2007 04:58 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
The best hand is the one that I want. So in your case, that's AcQc.

To shut those players up, lay out those exact same pf cards and shuffle all the other cards into the stub. Offer any player to play 88 against your AcQc for $100 each (so the stub is 46 cards with the K8 being dead cards).

pig4bill 09-17-2007 05:19 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
K8 wasn't dead. He was in the pot too.

AQc was an underdog in the pot. Saying one of the 8's is dead is no more relevant than asking around the table to see if anyone mucked an ace or queen, as was previously mentioned. Either you ignore the K8 hand entirely in the argument, or you include it, and it's live.

PantsOnFire 09-17-2007 05:27 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
[ QUOTE ]
K8 wasn't dead. He was in the pot too.

AQc was an underdog in the pot. Saying one of the 8's is dead is no more relevant than asking around the table to see if anyone mucked an ace or queen, as was previously mentioned. Either you ignore the K8 hand entirely in the argument, or you include it, and it's live.

[/ QUOTE ]
No problem. K8 is live and if that hand wins, you split the pot. Or, you kill the K8 hand at the river and give the pot to the second best hand...

Take your pick.

Biggle10 09-17-2007 07:11 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
[ QUOTE ]
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3114464
pokenum -h ac qc - kh 8h - 8c 8s
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Qc 585806 42.74 780573 56.94 4375 0.32 0.428
Kh 8h 324724 23.69 1016516 74.16 29514 2.15 0.247
8s 8c 430710 31.42 910530 66.43 29514 2.15 0.324

[/ QUOTE ]

How are people arguing that 88 is the best hand? Hold'em is played with 7 cards.

CORed 09-18-2007 12:04 AM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Pokerstove results:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

144,192,195 games 149.305 secs 965,755 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.810% 40.52% 00.30% 58432109 429251.50 { 88 }
Hand 1: 41.133% 40.70% 00.44% 58693360 633339.00 { AQs }
Hand 2: 18.057% 17.43% 00.63% 25131604 913076.50 { random }
</pre><hr />

Three-way, against a random third hand, AQs is a little bit ahead of 88 . This is a Monte Carlo, so the numbers aren't exact, but they're close.

Rek 09-18-2007 06:51 AM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
I can't believe some of you guys are arguing - the best hand is the hand with the highest % of winning once all cards are dealt.

I havn't done the math but in this case if AQs has a greater % of winning it is clearly the best hand. The fact that he already has a pair is of no consequence.

OP, I'm with you 100%

Galwegian 09-18-2007 08:00 AM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
I had a long argument with another "spewtard" (I like!)about this online. There are at least three different ways to define "best hand" in the situation you describe

1. The hand that has the most equity in an all in confrontation (AQ is ahead here).

2. The hand that has the most equity in terms of showdown equity and what Chen and Ankenman call "ex-showdown equity", i.e equity in any post flop betting that occurs
(this is harder to quantify precisely but my guess is that AQ is even further ahead in these terms as 88 or K8 will find it hard to live with any postflop action on the vast majority of flops.)

3. The hand that makes the best poker hand at the given moment. This really only makes sense after the flop, as a poker hand consists of 5 cards.

Most spewtards will argue vehemently that 3 is the only correct definition, when in fact any one who understands anything about poker realises that 3 is completely irrelevant in most situations. In your particular situation 1 is the appropriate definition, whereas for any hand involving postflop betting, 2 is the appropriate definition of the three presented.

I realise of course that there are other possibilities, but I think that these three are the most pertinent to the discussion.

corsakh 09-18-2007 09:47 AM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
Unless your playing a two card holdem, the best hand = the hand with the most equity.

When you have more equity than your opponent does, HE is drawing to get lucky, not you. Hence the best hand.

Besides, with two hole cards you don't even have a hand yet.

rakk 09-18-2007 02:00 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
People saying the winning hand at the moment is the best hand are the same people who say you should never go all-in with a draw. Best hand = hand with the most equity. I think KQhh vs 85o on a JhTh8d board it's pretty obvious KQh is the best hand .

Sevenfold 09-18-2007 02:59 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
He (88) had the 'best hand' in their world.

I like to use the term 'money favorite'.

Yes, your 88 was ahead of my AQs, but I was a big money fav.

Gene Fish 09-18-2007 04:18 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
just tell him he had the best hand and tell him to keep going all in with k-8

JOHNY CA$H 09-18-2007 09:38 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
You're right of course, and as a rule of thumb never argue with donks. Ever.

The only justification for their point of view is that, say he knew you had AQ, calling with 88 is correct not knowing the other guy has K8.

tmcdmck 09-18-2007 10:24 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
well whichever hand is "best" any sensible player would choose the hand with the most equity . . .

JOHNY CA$H 09-18-2007 10:47 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So my question is, what do you consider to be the "best" hand? The made hand or the one with the highest winning %?

[/ QUOTE ]

The made hand is the best hand. Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether you should be putting all the money in with the best hand. It's pretty obvious that if you have K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and your opponent has 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he has the best hand, but he should fold if you move all-in (and the pot is small compared to the stack sizes.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't consider the 8's here the "best" hand, and don't feel that distinction is of any help.

Mark1808 09-18-2007 11:30 PM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
There is no question you held the best hand when all cards were turned over. Anyone who would not pick your hand once the other two hands were turned over would be making a mistake as your hand would make the most money in the long run. I would add I love a game were people are calling all ins with 88 and K8!!!

Albert Moulton 09-19-2007 03:43 AM

Re: Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3114464
pokenum -h ac qc - kh 8h - 8c 8s
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Qc 585806 42.74 780573 56.94 4375 0.32 0.428
Kh 8h 324724 23.69 1016516 74.16 29514 2.15 0.247
8s 8c 430710 31.42 910530 66.43 29514 2.15 0.324

[/ QUOTE ]

How are people arguing that 88 is the best hand? Hold'em is played with 7 cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like in this match up, AcQc is the best hand. Things change if you have to bet or call in installments on the flop, then the turn, then the river. But that's not the case here. AcQc is "best."

But I wouldn't argue with anybody at the table. You made a move. Two guys called without good pot odds relative to their hand equity. You had a positive expectation when the money went in, but you lost. Just say, "nice hand" and rebuy. If they really are bad players, then don't tap the glass.


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