Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

Villain is a reg on the tighter side, runs at around 17/12. Don't think we've tangled much but I've been super aggressive on this table.

I'm pretty sure I have the best hand here a lot, but I'm not sure how to proceed on the turn optimally. Thoughts?

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $315.00
Hero (BB): $699.00
UTG: $390.60
MP: $414.50
CO: $348.90
BTN: $289.90

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $14.00</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $52.00</font>, CO calls $38.00

Flop: ($106) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $78.00</font>, CO calls $78.00

Turn: ($262) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero ??? (villain has $220 left)

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

If you have been playing pretty aggro and you are sure you have the best hand, I just shove.

Edit- make him think you have AK or something and get him to call you with a weak(er) pair like 99 or something.

Edit 2- whos villain?

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

yah i agree, shove if u think u're ahead.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

Villain is "Fumii".

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

hero shoves

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

and btw if this turn isnt a shove then the flop isnt a bet imizzle

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

Why did you 3bet a 17/12 with KJo OOP?

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

yea I wouldn't be 3betting this pf vs this guy. As played, I'm torn between shoving now and checking to valuetown TT/99 on the river. The only reason I see to bet now is to pray he calls light, before an ace or king falls on the river. However, I'm not convinced that a nitty reg is going to pay you off with any worse hands when you shove the turn. I think I usually check here but I have turn AF &lt; river AF, so maybe I'm leaking [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

If I know he's never shoving 99-TT on turn here I'm probably c/fing honestly. I don't like the 3 bet against this tight of a player pre either. If you check the turn and he checks behind I'm definitiely shoving or VBing big on the river.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

I agree with AAismyfriend that if we check turn and he bets, we're probably beat. If you have been playing super aggressive at this table and he has noticed, then I can see him calling the flop with a better hand to let you hang yourself on later streets.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

I don't mind c/rai, open pushing, or bet/calling $175 with these stacks. I'd say w/e you think will get value from 99 or TT, since I would say those are definitely his most likely holdings IMO, maybe 77.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

hey man, nothing but love, i even checked out one of your videos...but this is bad

i would bet less on flop to induce a shove

i dont even know if we can comment on the turn without any knowledge/history...its prolly neutral EV either way with what we have to work with

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

Why is this turn play "tricky" ?

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

Checking with a pair = tricky

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking with a pair = tricky

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

I hate preflop. On the turn do whatever you'd do with AK. If you'd double barrel some and check-fold some then bet some and check-call some.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

why is everyone freaking out over preflop? Dude's 17/12, he is on the cutoff, so he's still opening the top 30%. Its not the most plus ev 3bet ever, but definitely isn't bad. I wouldn't auto3bet this, but definitely would some of the time, and given that u have a very agg image, i'd def lean toward not 3betting it just for the sake of avoiding tough spots.

I think i like a c/f on the turn, op.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

Preflop is a little marginal, but I don't think it's that bad.

Anyways, I shoved turn and he folded relatively quickly.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is a little marginal, but I don't think it's that bad.

Anyways, I shoved turn and he folded relatively quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]
thats fine, ur really looking to get value from TT QJ JT. I would also want to be confident if he had QQ+ he would have raised pre or on the flop

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

pf shouldnt be standard be i dont think its bad. villain is going to fold a lot of his opening hands and if he calls u still have a hand to play.

i am a bit confused by people saying this is an easy turn shove. if u have been aggressive and double-barreled a lot, villain can easy come up with jj+ here.

i am prolly c/f ing the turn and valuebetting river if he checks the turn behind.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
17/12, he is on the cutoff, so he's still opening the top 30%.

[/ QUOTE ]No, I don't think so.

He's probably opening around 19% on the CO. KJo is ~44% against that range and we're OOP and we're often dominated by his calling range so facing negative implied odds.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

Ug why 3 bet with KJ? Thats the probelm. You get yourself in these spots all the time where you have one pot left or get 2 to 1 to call and even though your behind you still call? Its why the chips keep going around and around and swings. I mean you have to put him on at least AJ qq+ on flop call..Then if he does have 1010/99..please just check the turn and guess.

So since you like these 2 to 1 or i only have a pot sized bet love just get it in. Hes not gonna call with 1010 99, and if he does have QQ hes not folding.Then you can at least say i knew he had 99 when he turns it over...

FWIW since ur so concerned about pot size now why not throw out a 1/3 bet on turn and see what happens?

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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Its why the chips keep going around and around and swongs.

[/ QUOTE ]yeah the swongs they are one thing right?

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

Shove turn. Preflop is pretty bad.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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17/12, he is on the cutoff, so he's still opening the top 30%.

[/ QUOTE ]No, I don't think so.

He's probably opening around 19% on the CO. KJo is ~44% against that range and we're OOP and we're often dominated by his calling range so facing negative implied odds.

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I agree, a 17/12 doesn't steal with 30% of his hands from co. He's likely stealing something like 20% from co and maybe 25-27 from btn. KJo has 41% equity vs the 20% stealing range I gave him (obv just an approximation):

22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A8o+,KJo+

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

well, ok, i'll agree that my original claim of 30% is a little much

HOWEVER

a decent 17/12 player is still gonna have an attempt to steal stat of around 30%, which means that his cutoff/button AVERAGE is 30%, and since most people raise the button more than co, i think we can agree on a 35/25 spread. 25%, i exaggerated by 5.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
well, ok, i'll agree that my original claim of 30% is a little much

HOWEVER

a decent 17/12 player is still gonna have an attempt to steal stat of around 30%, which means that his cutoff/button AVERAGE is 30%, and since most people raise the button more than co, i think we can agree on a 35/25 spread. 25%, i exaggerated by 5.

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An average 17/12 at 400nl doesn't steal more than 25%. At least not where I play. That's why he's 17/12.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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KJo has 41% equity vs the 20% stealing range I gave him (obv just an approximation):

22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A8o+,KJo+

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see what KJo's equity vs villains opening range has to do with anything tbh.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

yeah its about how KJo does against his calling range, id wait for a suited connector or something to 3bet him, and JJ+ obv., KJo really really sucks here. Sounds weak but as played im probably check/calling the flop and checkfolding the turn vs this kind of player.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

If we are behind his range OOP then we're bluffing. Maybe this isn't the best hand for bluffing and another hand that's also behind his range but is less likely to be dominated would be better?

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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If we are behind his range OOP then we're bluffing.

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No wai! Also, its an awful lot to do with his calling range, not just his opening range.

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Maybe this isn't the best hand for bluffing and another hand that's also behind his range but is less likely to be dominated would be better?

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I've yet to see a convincing argument that proves something like 98s is that much better than KJo tbh.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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[ QUOTE ]
KJo has 41% equity vs the 20% stealing range I gave him (obv just an approximation):

22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A8o+,KJo+

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see what KJo's equity vs villains opening range has to do with anything tbh.

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lol, no it doesn't really

What's important is his calling range, we're obv screwed in terms of equity if called, but if he calls too few 3-bets we'll make a profit anyways. In general I think 3-betting a 17/12s co-steal with KJo is bad though, because his opening range is probably tight and we can easily end up in tricky spot oop like this where he can easily just call down with hands like Aj/AA-QQ etc letting us hang ourselves.

If A5 had a read that he's weak vs 3-bet then of course we should exploit that by 3-betting more. In general I think 3-betting is bad though and I'd be more likely to do it with 98s or something because it's better vs the actually calls with.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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No wai!

[/ QUOTE ]ya rly!

[ QUOTE ]
Also, its an awful lot to do with his calling range, not just his opening range.

[/ QUOTE ]I think KJo loses more against his calling range as compared to medium SCs. If you believe he calls exploitably little then you can 3bet with ATC while it lasts so let's assume he calls a reasonable range.

[ QUOTE ]
I've yet to see a convincing argument that proves something like 98s is that much better than KJo tbh.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not good enough to provide a convincing one.

If we take (for example) the 9% top hands as defined by pokerstove then we see that KJo == 98s against that range. That's obviously not a convincing argument that 98s &gt; KJo here.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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I've yet to see a convincing argument that proves something like 98s is that much better than KJo tbh.

[/ QUOTE ]
Implied odds. We'll stack him often on Q88-flops for example. KJo isn't likely to make many hands we like to get our money in with, and when it does it's more likely villain has made an even stronger hand, alternatively folds because the board looks scary. With 98s we'll get plenty of opportunitys to push him off better hands when flopping a strong draw. Etc.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

OTOH if your image is such that you get looked up by second pair bad kicker then KJ &gt; 98.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

arg, 98s and KJo are both good to 3bet here each in their own ways. Sure, 98s flops cinch hands and we win stacks. KJo flops top pair more and we win more showdowns.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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arg, 98s and KJo are both good to 3bet here each in their own ways. Sure, 98s flops cinch hands and we win stacks. KJo flops top pair more and we win more showdowns.

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Don't really know how many sd:s we'll win with KJ vs this player after we 3-bet preflop. We're most likely dominated if we get called or in a postion where we won't get paid off by TT-88ish hands.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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arg, 98s and KJo are both good to 3bet here each in their own ways. Sure, 98s flops cinch hands and we win stacks. KJo flops top pair more and we win more showdowns.

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Don't really know how many sd:s we'll win with KJ vs this player after we 3-bet preflop. We're most likely dominated if we get called or in a postion where we won't get paid off by TT-88ish hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you just ignoring the fact this 'domination' applies to 98s aswell?

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

also, i think in an aggressive shorthanded game you are overestimating "domination" a little. If we flop top pair after 3betting this guy, it figures to be good, plain and simple.

rr pre with KJo, flop Jxx, we are doing pretty good vs a preflop calling range of pairs, mid suited connectors and AKAQ, flop Kxx, we are doing pretty good vs the same range.

Ranges are simply too wide in this spot for domination to be an enormous concern.

Re: Tricky turn play in 3bet pot
 

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arg, 98s and KJo are both good to 3bet here each in their own ways. Sure, 98s flops cinch hands and we win stacks. KJo flops top pair more and we win more showdowns.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't really know how many sd:s we'll win with KJ vs this player after we 3-bet preflop. We're most likely dominated if we get called or in a postion where we won't get paid off by TT-88ish hands.

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Are you just ignoring the fact this 'domination' applies to 98s aswell?

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Both hands equity vs a range like 99+,AJs+,KQs,AKo is almost identical. What I'm trying to say is that when 98s makes a strong hand it's likely more concealed and will get paid off a lot more often. When we make a strong hand with KJ we likely need to fear villain having an even better. Point being flops that hits KJo hard will also hit villain's range hard, most often harder because his range clearly dominates us (AA-TT/AK/AQ/KQs etc).

Let's say he call preflop and the flop is 88x. He'll probably stack off with most overpairs, while he'll much more likely to get away from most PPs on JJx- or Kxx-boards. On the Kxx-board for example we won't get action from worse often. That being said of course we'll not get action from worse on a 9xx-flop either, but 98s rely on making TP hands much less than KJo.

This seems pretty basic to me, am I missing something?