OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

Alright, lets establish a few ground rules:

1) Please no trolling in this thread. Do not post in this thread if you do not have legitimate things to add. Jokes can be saved for BBV. Don't clutter this thread, I don't want to sift through 40 posts to find one thing with substance.

2) Only substance in responses.

3) In general, only respond if you are directly effected and have played against our named list of suspected super-players (again, unless you have something to ADD that is worthwhile).

4) If you are effected, I would appreciate if you construct a similar type write up and post it here or in your own thread. What we also need to do is combine into 1 database, and do this type of thing, and to be able to get some EXACT numbers about these peoples' postflop tendencies (similar to like what Dan Druff said in the thread that got moved... "In 845 hands, PLAYERABC made what we would call river valuebets 74 times. He got called and won 74 of them. He checked behind with 34 showdownable hands that COULD be debatable valuebets, and lost 33 of them." )


MY GRAYCAT REPORT TO COME IN 5 MINUTES.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2589/graycatng2.jpg

In these 173 hands, only once does he call a river bet with a worse hand ( http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489653 occurring on Aug 14th, before the AP updates near the end of the month) and only once does he call a river bet with the best hand. The only time he bets the river and gets called by better is when his hand has no showdown value to begin with.

In these 173 hands, not once did he ever come close to paying me off when I flopped something good, and he checked behind when I flopped pairs quite often, unless he had my pair beat. This hand is the most money I won in a pot ever, against him (would be curious for AP to check and see what he called with; it seems most likely he has a ten in his hand, yet he doesn’t pay off river): http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489803

In these 173 hands, in only 16 of them does he lose at least $1000. Yet, he has played 67.05% of them and raised 57.23% of them. Of these 16, you would think that means he has paid off with a second best in a lot of them. However, not once has he. In the most expensive one, he lost $2400, and folded to a single river bet in a HU pot on this board (after he was the aggressor in other streets): *** [3h 6c 5s Kd] [4c]***. In his other $2400 loss, he had 5 high and 3 bet the turn against two opponents (and bet river), one of who has A5 high and the other has K9 high. The next one, -$2200, is also a pure bluff against 1 hand which does not have a pair (but called down). The next, -$2000, is tough to gather much from: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489830 The next, -$1800, he again puts in a lot of action on the flop on a draw heavy board, and then folds for 1 bet on the river when a draw hitting card comes. I could keep going like this, but the basic point is graycat always manages to lose the minimum if he’s beat, unless his opponents themselves have marginal hands and he tries and fails to blow them out of the pot with even worse. He never loses money with second best hands.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489646 is not a hand that seems synonymous with someone who plays a hand like this: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489653

Very suspect amount of action: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489661

Very suspect postflop play unless you can see your opponent has an underpair to the board: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489669

Questionable preflop line that lacks congruence with postflop line when you are as big of a maniac as he is. Would make sense to cap preflop if you see other’s hands and know you have live cards. Anyway, the fact he check calls flop and turn is telling that he knows he’s drawing and is no longer is going to continue with his “bluff” (most maniacs in my experience would bet this flop with their OESD): http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489674

Tough river bet for someone to make who has yet to not play every river perfectly: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489682

Yet another strong river value raise by a guy who has never bet/raised a river and been called and lost unless he is on a bluff 5 hi bluff: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489695

He has insanely aggressive stats, yet knows to check and call flop here with flush draw: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489702

His only check call with the best hand (goes against cheater theory): http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489715

Made perfect postflop decisions: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489726

Played JUST like someone who know’s his opponent’s hand: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489735 NOTICE comparatively, he has nothing here, yet gives up on the river once he gets called on the turn: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489744

Three-bets pf and checks flop, opponent has him beat: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489771

Does not prove anything but it would be interesting to have AP check to see what Graycat folded: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489778

Again would be interesting to have AP check to see what Graycat folded (also, SCHDNFRD what did you have here? IF you had a draw that got there, this is more support for graycat seeing hands and simply pounding at your draw, hoping you miss): http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489785

Don’t know what to make of this hand other than betting the flop isn’t that bad of an idea when the guy after you has 66 and the next guy has KQ: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489793


I feel like what I have here is not enough to *prove* Graycat cheats; though, I feel like if we combined our databases and were able to find more proof of perfect postflop decision-making over a larger sample of hands, we get him. In my hands, I did not see any actual postflop *mistakes* by him -- ie, it does *feel* like he's playing with extra knowledge.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

Do you have timeframe for that? These are from July 15th:

STAGE #708090317: HOLDEM NORMAL $150/$300 - 2007-07-15 01:38:32 (ET)
Table: IDELA AVE (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - BUGSTUD ($5040 in chips)
Seat 4 - CALVINHOBBES ($28516.50 in chips)
Seat 5 - EZ2PLY ($6000 in chips)
Seat 6 - DONKOFHOLDEM ($8995 in chips)
Seat 7 - SCARY_TIGER ($8135 in chips)
Seat 1 - GRAYCAT ($2609.48 in chips)
Seat 2 - JAKETTE ($4210 in chips)
CALVINHOBBES - Posts small blind $100
EZ2PLY - Posts big blind $150
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SCARY_TIGER [5h Ks]
DONKOFHOLDEM - Folds
SCARY_TIGER - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $300
JAKETTE - Folds
BUGSTUD - Raises $450 to $450
CALVINHOBBES - Folds
EZ2PLY - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $600
BUGSTUD - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [10s Js 3d]
GRAYCAT - Bets $150
BUGSTUD - Calls $150
*** TURN *** [10s Js 3d] [2d]
GRAYCAT - Bets $300
BUGSTUD - Calls $300
*** RIVER *** [10s Js 3d 2d] [6d]
GRAYCAT - Checks
BUGSTUD - Bets $300
GRAYCAT - Calls $300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BUGSTUD - Shows [8c 8h] (One pair, eights)
GRAYCAT - Mucks
BUGSTUD Collects $2945 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($2950) | Rake ($5)
Board [10s Js 3d 2d 6d]
Seat 1: GRAYCAT HI: [Mucked] [Ac Kh]
Seat 2: JAKETTE Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: BUGSTUD (dealer) won Total ($2945) HI:($2945) with One pair, eights [8c 8h - P:8h,P:8c,B:Js,B:10s,B:6d]
Seat 4: CALVINHOBBES (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: EZ2PLY (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: DONKOFHOLDEM Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: SCARY_TIGER Folded on the POCKET CARDS

STAGE #708087121: HOLDEM NORMAL $150/$300 - 2007-07-15 01:34:04 (ET)
Table: IDELA AVE (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 2 - JAKETTE ($4660 in chips)
Seat 3 - BUGSTUD ($7595 in chips)
Seat 4 - CALVINHOBBES ($26526.50 in chips)
Seat 6 - DONKOFHOLDEM ($7500 in chips)
Seat 7 - SCARY_TIGER ($8385 in chips)
Seat 1 - GRAYCAT ($2869.48 in chips)
BUGSTUD - Posts small blind $100
CALVINHOBBES - Posts big blind $150
GRAYCAT - Posts $150
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SCARY_TIGER [7d Qc]
DONKOFHOLDEM - Raises $300 to $300
SCARY_TIGER - Folds
GRAYCAT - Calls $150
JAKETTE - Folds
BUGSTUD - Folds
CALVINHOBBES - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [9s 2d Ac]
CALVINHOBBES - Checks
DONKOFHOLDEM - Bets $150
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $300
CALVINHOBBES - Folds
DONKOFHOLDEM - Raises $300 to $450
GRAYCAT - Calls $150
*** TURN *** [9s 2d Ac] [8s]
DONKOFHOLDEM - Bets $300
GRAYCAT - Calls $300
*** RIVER *** [9s 2d Ac 8s] [10h]
DONKOFHOLDEM - Bets $300
GRAYCAT - Calls $300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DONKOFHOLDEM - Shows [Ah Qs] (One pair, aces)
GRAYCAT - Mucks
DONKOFHOLDEM Collects $3095 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($3100) | Rake ($5)
Board [9s 2d Ac 8s 10h]
Seat 1: GRAYCAT HI: [Mucked] [4c Ad]
Seat 2: JAKETTE (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: BUGSTUD (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: CALVINHOBBES (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 6: DONKOFHOLDEM won Total ($3095) HI:($3095) with One pair, aces(queen kicker) [Ah Qs - P:Ah,B:Ac,P:Qs,B:10h,B:9s]
Seat 7: SCARY_TIGER Folded on the POCKET CARDS


STAGE #708091217: HOLDEM NORMAL $150/$300 - 2007-07-15 01:39:47 (ET)
Table: IDELA AVE (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - EZ2PLY ($14750 in chips)
Seat 6 - DONKOFHOLDEM ($8845 in chips)
Seat 7 - SCARY_TIGER ($8135 in chips)
Seat 1 - GRAYCAT ($1509.48 in chips)
Seat 2 - JAKETTE ($4210 in chips)
Seat 3 - BUGSTUD ($6635 in chips)
Seat 4 - CALVINHOBBES ($28416.50 in chips)
DONKOFHOLDEM - Posts small blind $100
SCARY_TIGER - Posts big blind $150
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SCARY_TIGER [10c Kd]
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $300
JAKETTE - Folds
BUGSTUD - Folds
CALVINHOBBES - Folds
EZ2PLY - Folds
DONKOFHOLDEM - Folds
SCARY_TIGER - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [Ks Kh Qh]
SCARY_TIGER - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $150
SCARY_TIGER - Raises $300 to $300
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $450
SCARY_TIGER - Calls $150
*** TURN *** [Ks Kh Qh] [8s]
SCARY_TIGER - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $300
SCARY_TIGER - Raises $600 to $600
GRAYCAT - All-In(Raise) $459.48 to $759.48
SCARY_TIGER - Calls $159.48
*** RIVER *** [Ks Kh Qh 8s] [Jc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GRAYCAT - Shows [Js 4s] (Two Pair, kings and jacks)
SCARY_TIGER - Shows [10c Kd] (Three of a kind, kings)
SCARY_TIGER Collects $3113.96 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($3118.96) | Rake ($5)
Board [Ks Kh Qh 8s Jc]
Seat 1: GRAYCAT HI:lost with Two Pair, kings and jacks [Js 4s - B:Ks,B:Kh,P:Js,B:Jc,B:Qh]
Seat 2: JAKETTE Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: BUGSTUD Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: CALVINHOBBES Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: EZ2PLY (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: DONKOFHOLDEM (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: SCARY_TIGER (big blind) won Total ($3113.96) HI:($3113.96) with Three of a kind, kings [10c Kd - B:Ks,B:Kh,P:Kd,B:Qh,B:Jc]

So over the course of ten hands he called with a worse hand on the river twice and actually busted in the last hand. But yeah, I only have 10 hands on GRAYCAT at 150/300 and he dropped 10 bets. So nothing seemed suspicious the one time I played with him.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

8/14/07 which was 9 hands (and also the time he called my river bet with worse), and the rest on the 27th and 28th of August. A lot of these suspicions about Graycat arose around that later time period, which I believe someone was saying immediately after the latest AP update. I'm not 100% saying Graycat is guilty of anything, though I know people who think that a few of our names are actually the same person.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

I would feel comfortable saying that Graycat wasn't cheating before the patch. Afterwards I have no idea. He was a huge donor and would often jam a ridiculous amount of bets when drawing dead. In the small sample I have on him he's down nearly 20k.

Sure he sometimes does schizo things like 3 bet and c/f when you flop the nuts, but if I recall he also does things like 3 bet and c/f when you have J high.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

There's no question that they are all the same person, for several reasons.

Perhaps they are in a number of different names, but it's clearly the same person behind all of the accounts. Even if it isn't just one person, it is at the very least one person in cahoots with the others.

For simplicity's sake, I think we can treat all of the suspect accounts as belonging to one guy.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

Also, what Schneids did was a good start. Everyone with Pokertracker records on this guy needs to compile them into a "report" like Schneids made and post it here.

173 hands, as suspicious as they are, won't be a strong enough case.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

Heard about this thread in absolute chat box. Here is my hands against GrayCat. 1 session played on 8/06, 1 on 8/14 and 2 on 8/15. All hands against me. Comments to come shortly. I am far from convinced that he is cheating.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6748/graycatne5.png

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

Does anybody know the dates when these players showed up? I have an old hard drive with alot of hands from absolute on it that I was going to throw away but I would definetly look at it if these guys were around before feb 07 as I am down 5k so far and would like to see if I lost any more.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

fog, the shady stuff seems to be after the 8/23 update. Play them anytime since?

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

no, I haven't. The way he plays in my hands is similar to what has been described (rarely check/calling river etc.). I'll hopefully get some hands up today that I can comment on, but for now I would say that if this guy is cheating, he is doing it in 2 main ways:

1) Very rarely calling down with ace high, king high, or very small pairs when he is beat.

2) Attacking when his opponent has air that can't withstand aggression.

Obviously, it is pretty difficult to prove that someone doing these two things is cheating.

I have a large number of hands where he makes plays that are not optimal given that he knows my hand. For example 3betting the turn with 2nd pair when I have top two. This could of course be cover up though.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

[ QUOTE ]
no, I haven't. The way he plays in my hands is similar to what has been described (rarely check/calling river etc.). I'll hopefully get some hands up today that I can comment on, but for now I would say that if this guy is cheating, he is doing it in 2 main ways:

1) Very rarely calling down with ace high, king high, or very small pairs when he is beat.

2) Attacking when his opponent has air that can't withstand aggression.

Obviously, it is pretty difficult to prove that someone doing these two things is cheating.

I have a large number of hands where he makes plays that are not optimal given that he knows my hand. For example 3betting the turn with 2nd pair when I have top two. This could of course be cover up though.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's basically how I felt when I played Mark Seif - he played almost like he could see my cards, but did make a couple of FTOP suboptimal plays.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

we took 71 hands to SD since 8/23

Im down 21k to him. Riiiiiigggghhhhtttt

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

this is a repost from another thread..
i spoke to stretch about it earlier, and he was surprised about graycat, so i asked him to post his hands against him.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...ee/graycat.jpg


edit: this is from before the patch

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

that graycat is playing a CLEARLY different style than post update graycat

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

shneids, i def. respect your game and i'm sure you dont come off making accusations like this all the time. All I have is the old Graycat where he was a weak player in those bigger games. When was the last time you saw him on AP?

Also, Mark Seif is horrible at poker. There is no confusion there. I have him down 6 figures.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

I know I'm not as big of a name as a lot of you, especially on here, but I just got a call from AP about the Aruba Classic and while on the phone with them asked them if they knew anything about this issue. They said they were already aware of it and it had no validity. Schneids you put this together very well, i'd be interested in seeing more posts like that. Obviously my history is mostly from April, where he clearly had no edge in the game.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Heard about this thread in absolute chat box. Here is my hands against GrayCat. 1 session played on 8/06, 1 on 8/14 and 2 on 8/15. All hands against me. Comments to come shortly. I am far from convinced that he is cheating.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you were convinced and now you are way beyond convinced and on your way up to conspiracy theories?

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

far from convinced != way beyond convinced

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

[ QUOTE ]

I have a large number of hands where he makes plays that are not optimal given that he knows my hand. For example 3betting the turn with 2nd pair when I have top two. This could of course be cover up though.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way i see it he is up almost 100bb in 500 hands hu against you. He would have to be a fool to not give you a little excessive action on hands to keep your action.

You play a lot and im sure he would like to continue playing you if he is in fact cheating. spewing a few hands is almost necessary in a hu match of any significant duration to not instantly lose your action.

-brad

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

You guys are saying that the cheating only happened after the latest absolute patch.

You are also saying that one of the biggest pieces of evidence that GrayCat cheats in LHE is the fact that he never calls the river.

In my hands, which occurred before the patch, he almost never calls the river.

So either he was cheating before the updates, he doesn't cheat at all, or his cheating is not related to him never calling the river.

It seems that when counter evidence is presented, a lot of people are making after-the-fact statements like "oh, he was only cheating during so and so time period."

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

well his river AF rose from 2.3 in my pre-update hands to 18 in my post update hands, thats pretty interesting in and of itself

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

also his pre-update vpip i have is 42 and his post update vpip is around 70

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

how many hands are your samples?

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

I could definitely see how a player such as graycat could loosen up considerably when running hot. additionally i could see how he could lag it up considerably on the river feeling "invincible." what i cant see is how graycat, steamroller, and doubledrag can have so many similarities, play both limit and no limit in such a questionable way, and all be huge winners with stats previously though unachievable.

-brad

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

ok i just reviewed a few graycat sessions from before the "update" and i will say that he plays a similar style but makes many more mistakes and NEVER check folds before the river. the biggest difference i see in his play is his uncanny ability to check fold the flop and turn post "update" when his opponent hits. this could as i originally thought just be a case of him running at his top .1% but it still doesn't explain all the doubledrag/steamroller nonsense.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

graycat was running very well in my sample pre-updaet as well. but the difference was he was playing much much differently. much more like a player would play if he had to worry about his opponents have him beat or if he had to worry about river bluffing at all

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

Brad,

He check/folded before the river several times in my pre-update sample.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are saying that the cheating only happened after the latest absolute patch.

You are also saying that one of the biggest pieces of evidence that GrayCat cheats in LHE is the fact that he never calls the river.

In my hands, which occurred before the patch, he almost never calls the river.

So either he was cheating before the updates, he doesn't cheat at all, or his cheating is not related to him never calling the river.

It seems that when counter evidence is presented, a lot of people are making after-the-fact statements like "oh, he was only cheating during so and so time period."

[/ QUOTE ]

Your sample shows a river AF of 4.6, that is way different than the post updates samples showing him at 10+ and in some cases infinite (never called on the river in that sample).

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

stretches sample from april shows a river AF of 2.

post patch he runs with a river AF near infinite.

in some of the pre-patch samples he runs with a high river AF, but not nearly as high in the post-patch. this could be due to the pre-patch samples being a mix of rigged hands and non-rigged hands.

in your pre-patch sample, how large a range of dates are used? can you isolate between certain dates to see if there is a drastic difference between sessions?

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

fwiw the NL hands are 100% cheating

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

So you have a very blatant and greedy cheater. But how many more subtle and not so greedy cheaters are there? I'd guess there are many more that are not nearly as bold. How could anyone play on this site?

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

I was initially convinced that this was a BS conspiracy theory spun by bitter pros. After talking to other pros who played graycat, and analyzing my own hand histories with him, I am now convinced that cheating took place on AP.

I think the most likely explanation is as follows...

Graycat, DOUBLEDRAG, and Steamroller were able to see hole cards and used this ability to cheat.

(It is possible that the people behind this cheating are or were associated with the site, and that they used existing dormant accounts to cheat. That could explain severe differences in past and present records of these accounts.)

After cheating the pros, these accounts then dumped chips HU to accounts such as SUPERCARDM55, who played short sessions without cheating in order to make the accounts appear legitimate for the purposes of cashing out.

I would like to see a list of the other accounts that received the dumped chips. I saw an account named something like "PIRATE_PKR" playing DONKOFHOLDEM and calvinhobbes right after graycat, and I would like to know if this is a real player or an account related to the cheating.

In closing, it sucks that AP's negligence allowed this to happen. It also sucks that they have no motivation to admit that players were cheated. I am sure they feel that refunding the money to graycat's victims would permanently damage the reputation of the site. Still, I hope that we can make sure that the people involved in this graycat business are not allowed to keep the money. Perhaps Seifdonk should keep the money as his personal online BR; this would enable restitution in a less embarrassing manner.

-GoodEats

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

The reason I'm not convinced this was an inside job is simply why would they need to dump the chips. They could just "cash" them out with an internal transfer behind the scenes. Why blatantly move the chips from one account to the other in a huge game and hope nobody notices?

After looking over some of the same hh's that Eats saw I agree, there is definitely cheating going on with these accounts.

I haven't seen any of these accounts, has anyone else. Anyone else think it's possible that AP just confiscated the funds and closed the accounts. By not telling anyone they could a. keep the money and b. still claim nothing shady happened.

I'd say keep on the looking for an AP software update, but it updates everyday anyway.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

The cheating doesn't need to involve someone from the company, but it would make things easier.

I was thinking it could be a past or present employee who knew about the software, cashout proceedures, etc. If it was someone with the company, they'd be doing it for themselves and hoping that the cheating would never be noticed.

At the same time, it could be anyone, and there is no evidence that anyone associated with AP is involved.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I'm not convinced this was an inside job is simply why would they need to dump the chips. They could just "cash" them out with an internal transfer behind the scenes. Why blatantly move the chips from one account to the other in a huge game and hope nobody notices?

After looking over some of the same hh's that Eats saw I agree, there is definitely cheating going on with these accounts.

I haven't seen any of these accounts, has anyone else. Anyone else think it's possible that AP just confiscated the funds and closed the accounts. By not telling anyone they could a. keep the money and b. still claim nothing shady happened.

I'd say keep on the looking for an AP software update, but it updates everyday anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your speculation as to why this would not be an inside job relies on the assumption that an inside job means complete and total access with cooperation of various departments. When a couple of insiders are not on the up and up, it doesn't mean they don't have to cover their tracks from the rest of the organization.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

POTRIPPER needs to be added to the list of names here. I am friends with two of the players on that 1k ft and it was oh so obv there too.

Devo

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

It seems that the general consensus here is that Graycat's weird play began very shortly after the last major software update. If that's true, the chances of cheating having actually occurred and it being an inside job BOTH increase greatly.

It is very possible that AP hired on additional programmers to complete their most recent major overhaul of the site. It would make sense because they probably maintain few programmers for day-to-day maintenance (as there really isn't all that much work to do), while completely changing the look-and-feel of the site is a major undertaking. If we can assume that the existing programmers were honest, bringing unknown new faces into the mix increases the chance of a security breach exponentially. All it takes is one guy who realizes how much money changes hands at the high limit games, and how easy it would be to give an accomplice access to a superuser account that can see the cards.

Let me put it another way. If you were a relatively poor temp programmer from a third-world country, and you came to realize that simply slipping a few passwords to a friend could potentially make you hundreds of thousands of dollars with little possible consequence if caught, would you be tempted to do so?

Good Eats' theory is the best one I've heard so far. It appears that three accounts were used to cheat (GRAYCAT, DBLDRAG, STEAMROLLER), while two were used to receive dumped chips and NOT cheat (SUPERCARDM55, PIRATE_PKR). The two "honest" accounts, after receiving the dumped money from the cheaters, would then play 1 or 2 "legitimate" sessions where they'd play like maniacs and actually lose some (but not a lot) of money. Then they would request a cashout, thereby avoiding the scrutiny that might otherwise be placed upon the accounts that actually cheated.

The following questions need to be asked of AP. Hopefully we'll get an answer:

1) Has GRAYCAT, STEAMROLLER, or DBLDRAG ever cashed out since the software was patched?

2) How much play did SUPERCARDM55 and PIRATE_PKR have prior to the chip-dumping? How much play did they have afterwards? Did they seemingly just receive chips via dump, play 1 or 2 sessions, and request a cashout?

3) Where do the IPs of all 5 accounts resolve to? Do they match the IPs originally used on the accounts?

4) Do SUPERCARDM55 and/or PIRATE_PKR have addresses outside the United States? Do either of them live in the same country as those who programmed AP?

5) What relation do SUPERCARDM55 and PIRATE_PKR seem to have with the other 3 accounts? Were their IPs from similar areas? Chip dumping was clear, so why was it done, and who seems to be behind it? Will you (AP) at least admit that chip dumping occurred between these individuals?


The biggest problem here is that AP simply cannot admit to this if true. There is no way for them to refund anyone's lost money without implying that these accusations are true, and that a serious breach of security occurred. I like to think of myself as an honest guy, but if I owned AP, I'd also be steadfastly denying all of this. Admitting that this occurred is basically suicide for any poker room.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

Hopefully if they don't admit this happened we can expose them enough that when it's seen that they are comprimised AND they cover it up, it's good night AP.

Really, the need to get independent, internationally respected auditors in. Open EVERYTHING up to the auditors, then make FULL retribution to those cheated, close the loophole, and introduce measures to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Re: OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)
 

Ugh...

SUPERCARDM55 had not been reported yet to AP Security, nor were they on the ball enough to figure out the obvious GRAYCAT chip-dump to him on August 30th.

I "officially" reported SUPERCARDM55 tonight, and hopefully he will get frozen soon, as well.

I also told AP Security to investigate EVERY player who has played DOUBLEDRAG, GRAYCAT, or STEAMROLLER heads up (since August) and won a lot of money. 100% sure that every such player will end up being an unknown name who "won" via chip dump. SUPERCARDM55 definitely fits that mold.

I'm just really bothered that they failed to turn up SUPERCARDM55 on their own. I mean, Graycat played the guy on August 30th and "lost" 55k incredibly fast heads up. That doesn't stick out like a sore thumb?