75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

Dunno how this will work but its the best way to post this hand so we'll just give it a try.

Shorthanded 75/150 game I'm playing fairly LAG but well, HOWMANY is on my left and playing good and a bit tightish IMO.

Folded to my SB 2 chip 3 chip structure I open complete (second time this situation has presented, and I open completed the first time too, called a raise preflop and check/folded the flop and truthfully let him know I had a very weak hand). Sean raises the BB and I call.

Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I checkraise, he calls.

Turn is 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I bet, get raised, think briefly and call.

River is 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I check, Sean tanks for at least 10 seconds and then bets, I quickly checkraise, Sean insta-3 bets.

1) What is the minimum hand you would need to call this river 3 bet that makes sense given the action?

2) What is the minimum hand you would need to 3 bet the river in Sean's spot that makes sense given the action?

3) If I am bluffing what hands would be good to play this way and CR river bluff and how do you feel about me making this bluff in general?

4) If Sean is bluffing what hands would be good to play this way and 3 bet river bluff and how do you feel about him making this bluff in general?

5) What do we both have?

I fully understand this post may suck but I like to try and get one interesting hand out of a session like this with another tough 2+2er in the game.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

I don't think I know expressly enough about sean's raising range in the bb here, but in your spot I'm not feeling very good about any hand I realistically have here. I mean like Qd3d/Qd7d/A3/A7 are like what should be top of your range...and it seems like sean beats all those. I'm trying to think deeper and my head is asploding, so I'm gonna come back to this later.

I guess one thing is sean has to not feel good about 1 pair of anything here when you c/r so something like Td8d seems like a good river c/r.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

You have A3 or qd3d and sean has A7 or better. If anybody is on a genuine bluff by the time the second bet goes in on the turn, they are playing badly. Particularly given the spectacularly spewy river betting you guys have been posting about lately.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

I think you played the hand brilliantly preflop with whatever you happen to have.

You probably have to 4bet most of the hands in your range at this point on the river. Sean tanking for a full ten seconds is a thinking decision, either a bluff or a thin value bet. Unless he is hollywooding you which I really doubt, his insta 3bet makes absolutely no sense and makes me think that you should 4bet for value any hand that's like A2 or better, and 4bet for bluff any hand worse than a J.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

why would you 4 bet those hand justin, he is never calling the 4 bet with hands that we beat...

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

You need Aces up to call, a set or straight to 4bet. Sean cannot put you on anything but a bluff or bad two pair so he could literally have anything, but I would assume if he was bluffing he would have a fd. I think it is ok for him to be bluffing, but not a good idea for you to be.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]

You probably have to 4bet most of the hands in your range at this point on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish he had done this. And yes I was playing super tight last night. I played basically super premium hands most the time you were there simply because I was receiving only fantastic hands or complete crap. I managed to pick up a few solid hands to 3bet Brenda with. Unfortunately I forgot that a tight and solid player like her is going to have QQ-AA 80% of the time.

Chris, is there any way I can convince you to stop playing so well?

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

My post is bad. I think I would call with anything I was raising for value on the river. I think it is Ok for HM to 3bet river bluff if he thinks you can fold 2 crappy pair, but that is probably a longshot since neither of you thinks the other has anything. I think you have a big hand. Not sure what HM has, but Id guess a fd.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

after the tank 10, insta 3bet, I'd have to think his range is KT, AA,QQ,JJ,bluff. If I'm HOWMANY I am definately thinking a bit with my AQ before 3betting. Now it is possible that he thought this through already and decided that he gets to 3bet AQ, but I just don't buy it.

I think your river 2bet minimum is any two pair or better. That tank 10 so often means "should I value bet my good ace?" that I'm raising any two pair here and feeling like I stepped in it when he 3bets.

The hand ranges in this hand are pretty wide up until the river 2bet and 3bet. Flush draw and JT are at the bottom of DD's range after the turn. Ace-rag, semi-bluff, bluff are at the bottom of HM's range at the end of the turn. At the end of the flop, bluff is too large a part of both players' range to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Should you call? uh, yeah dude, this is limited hold them. 13BB in the pot. Maybe he is on tilt and you just don't know it.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

I am surprised by how wide everyone else's hand ranges are. I know that I have a tendency to upgrade hands when people are telling a story or I read an HH, but I don't think that desperate bluff is a very large part of either players' range. A river call with any two pair is lighting money on fire as is raising anything less than QQ. The more I think about it, the more DD's hand looks exactly like some random 2pair. 3betting AJ is still good on his part, but that tank 10, insta 3 stops me from 4betting QQ here. Also, if you take the 3bet range to be AJ or better, QQ is losing to a little over 50% of his holdings, no? (this discounts 77,33 as non-existant)

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

you have a3. he has A7 or nothing.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

to try and seriously guess what either of you spew monkeys have or what you could be thinking is idiocy. the only safe guess would be the closer to nothing the more likely. just get to the punchline already and post it in low content next time.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
5) What do we both have?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. The way you two play against one another in the blinds, good luck. Didn't you guys play about a 12 BB pot the other day and the best hand was 9 high?

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

I failed to realize in my first post that HOWMANY's tank on the river might be with a strong hand that is simply deciding what to do if checkraised. Even so, Tank 10 insta-3bet makes me think he is very weak. I'd have a completely different read if it was only a Tank 5 insta-3bet.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

You are 100% correct. I was thinking because the way he called my turn raise I was fairly certain he was showing down. My tank was whether or not there was any possibility he was folding and I eventually decided that he can have T9/flush draw and call the turn quickly in the way he did and fold river. I beat most flush draws but I'd expect him to fold one that made a 7/3 and even though I chop T9 and beat T8 I'd rather have him fold and not see my hand. DD's c/r actually gave me a little bit more hope that I might be able to win the pot (either because he had nothing and I was wrong about him being showdown bound or he was making a thin value c/r) so I 3bet.

Had I bet quickly or thought only a moment I'm pretty sure that I would have just been called with what he had.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

the funniest thing is that with all the thin and/or bluff betting raising reraising and c/ring you guys do you each think the other still might fold. talk about suspension of disbelief.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
the funniest thing is that with all the thin and/or bluff betting raising reraising and c/ring you guys do you each think the other still might fold. talk about suspension of disbelief.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played the hand brilliantly preflop with whatever you happen to have.

You probably have to 4bet most of the hands in your range at this point on the river. Sean tanking for a full ten seconds is a thinking decision, either a bluff or a thin value bet. Unless he is hollywooding you which I really doubt, his insta 3bet makes absolutely no sense and makes me think that you should 4bet for value any hand that's like A2 or better, and 4bet for bluff any hand worse than a J.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with a lot of this but not the part about 4-betting A2, etc. I like the river c/r here if you have A2 given his long pause, fwiw, and that seems about right for your range of hands.

Rob

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
the funniest thing is that with all the thin and/or bluff betting raising reraising and c/ring you guys do you each think the other still might fold. talk about suspension of disbelief.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike's also correct that this should be posted in the low content thread.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
suspension of disbelief.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are too many negatives in here for me to understand what this means. translation?

if we suspend belief, that means we don't believe anything. so, if we suspend DISbelief, doesn't that mean we then believe everything? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

Bob, have you really never heard of the concept of "suspension of disbelief?"

It means ignoring the cynical part of you that doubts the veracity of what's going on. Used most often to refer to movie and TV audiences. E.g., what we do when we enjoy The Terminator and think to ourselves "okay I guess that makes sense; it could happen."

Mike is saying that the same goes for living in a world where Death Donkey folds a pair.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bob, have you really never heard of the concept of "suspension of disbelief?"

It means ignoring the cynical part of you that doubts the veracity of what's going on. Used most often to refer to movie and TV audiences. E.g., what we do when we enjoy The Terminator and think to ourselves "okay I guess that makes sense; it could happen."

Mike is saying that the same goes for living in a world where Death Donkey folds a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

never heard of it. thanks for clearing it up.

i agree that there likely is such an element of distrust here that neither will fold anything ever.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bob, have you really never heard of the concept of "suspension of disbelief?"

It means ignoring the cynical part of you that doubts the veracity of what's going on. Used most often to refer to movie and TV audiences. E.g., what we do when we enjoy The Terminator and think to ourselves "okay I guess that makes sense; it could happen."

Mike is saying that the same goes for living in a world where Death Donkey folds a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

never heard of it. thanks for clearing it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Brenda

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Huh? OMFG, you have her in your little private 75 game? WTF is going on? Was this played at Oceans? We can't let you guys bust all the fish alone.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

Well personally I think every hand I play is completely boring and unpostable but I make an effort to find one when I do happen to play live especially with another tough 2+2er where there might be a chance for interesting situations. I also find very limit merit anymore in just showing a hand and saying what I did and asking for comments, because I'll probably have some sort of personal read that supercedes any criticisms or just be too stubborn to change my ways at this point, so I think posts with questions like these actually are the only way to use the hand as a learning tool rather than as just a standard hand post.

But that's fine, everyone has their opinion, and if its a spew and silly to post no problem, I don't worry if a hand post isn't great, I'll still post more until someone tells me not to. I do think Mike L. that you shouldn't ruin a useful learning hand with your cynicism. I know its not that useful to you but I think there are some good things to take from this hand.

The biggest thing to take is basically what Justin A. said, that his river actions are not very credible. People saying they would fold two pair here etc. really need to never play a creative LAG because it would just be disastrous to fold something that good here, when his river action doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I give HOWMANY a lot of credit for the 3 bet bluff (should be obvious at this point I guess) because he did it quickly and decisively but I'd already decided I was showing down because I disguised my hand preflop.

Michael Davis suggested to me over AIM I should call the river 3 bet with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] which I agree with.

Anyway I had A6o and when he tanked on the river I thought he had KQ most likely and was determining if he had a value bet, so I value CRed, his 3 bet surprised me but confused me so I called which I usually do when things confuse me and he had T9o which he played fine except he made a big mistake thinking I couldn't hold an ace.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

"so, if we suspend DISbelief, doesn't that mean we then believe everything? "

basically. it's a very common film theory term. like film 101. when we watch a movie we suspend our dibelief in order to enjoy the film. i think sean and chris do that when they play a hand against each other. chris has the ability of tricking his opponents into thinking that way.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

"I do think Mike L. that you shouldn't ruin a useful learning hand with your cynicism."

to my credit it wasnt just cycnicism that made me poop on your thread. there was a good deal of laziness involved too.

seriously though the hands you told about me on the phone where you levelled him would explain why he was forced into feeling the need to play so desperately and spewy against you. it's becauase of this that we all agree you are a mid limit genius, it'd be sweet if you could focus that and mold it into some white chip riches.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

so, you c/red the river hoping to induce a 3bet bluff?

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

Is this a trick Bob? I realized there is no reason for him to tank for 10 seconds to value bet a hand that beats me so I checkraised hoping he called me so I could win more dollars.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a trick Bob? I realized there is no reason for him to tank for 10 seconds to value bet a hand that beats me so I checkraised hoping he called me so I could win more dollars.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

but if you think he shouldnt have to pause before he vaule bets, that means he is FOS and cannot call your c/r. but he CAN 3bone you with his shitbox. am i wrong here?

wait.....you thought he was going to call you with a worse hand?!?!?!?!

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

That's the problem with tanking on the river than taking an aggressive action. You open yourself up to all sorts of [censored] from all types of opponents.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

About 2 weeks ago I asked someone who thinks the majority of people who post on this forum are absolutely terrible poker players. When I asked him for examples of people that are decent and worth meeting at some point to learn from he answered HOWMANY and DD, amongst a couple other people.

When I asked why them two, he told me that he had never met them but that just by reading their posts he knew they were good players because of the way they think. After reading this thread, I'm like, WTF. THIS IS THE CRAP I HAVE TO GO THROUGH TO BECOME A POKER GOD?

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

I'm glad someone thinks I'm good because I'm really starting to wonder if I just ran better than everyone on the planet over hundreds of thousands of hands online and hundreds of hours live in like 10 different games.

DD is a way better player than I am and I wish that I could listen to the advice someone else gave me to never play with him in a game. Unfortunately this is not possible since we both live in the same area and the dollars are ready for the plucking.

Damon yes this was at Ocean's

Bob any hand I bet for value on the river after thinking so long I am instacalling a c/r for the same reason that I 3bet him with T9.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

Which is why it's important, if you're the kind of player who sometimes has to tank, to tank fairly often when you don't have to. They'll berate you for Hollywooding, but f*ck 'em.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad someone thinks I'm good because I'm really starting to wonder if I just ran better than everyone on the planet over hundreds of thousands of hands online and hundreds of hours live in like 10 different games.

DD is a way better player than I am and I wish that I could listen to the advice someone else gave me to never play with him in a game. Unfortunately this is not possible since we both live in the same area and the dollars are ready for the plucking.

Damon yes this was at Ocean's

Bob any hand I bet for value on the river after thinking so long I am instacalling a c/r for the same reason that I 3bet him with T9.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, i think that we do not need to win every pot. think about how much more fun this hand would have been had you checked preflop, called/checked the flop behind and folded the turn.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

I'm always going to be raising a powerhouse like T9 if the SB completes. A) I think I'm ahead B) I'd much rather my opponent take an aggressive approach (including folding for the 1/2bet sometimes) as I feel that is more exploitable by my playing style.

But I agree with your general approach of taking a more passive stance in these situations. My SB/BB variance used to determine my session results, and that's just silly. This is a good example of how that can happen. Of course both these players play higher than I currently, so, you know, take that with a grain of salt.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm always going to be raising a powerhouse like T9 if the SB completes.

[/ QUOTE ]

agaisnt DD i think this is a mistake. why make the pot big against an unpredictable lag who never believes you and you never believe him? guys like DD cause you to make mistakes, and if i make a mistake i want it to be in a small pot.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

The reason I'm fairly comfortable in ridiculous hands and situations like this one is because of the sheer number of hands I've played in home games, low limit goof-around games, and even ill-advised mid to high limit goof around games with great limit holdem players. Playing shorthanded with those guys, where everyone is trying to be tricky, win every pot, out-aggressive-ize the others, and all show our hands and discuss them afterwards.

I can't really think of a better way to understand the mindset of your tougher opponents and figure out creative and sometimes ridiculous ways to exploit it.

Thanks for the kind words,
DeathDonkey

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad someone thinks I'm good because I'm really starting to wonder if I just ran better than everyone on the planet over hundreds of thousands of hands online and hundreds of hours live in like 10 different games.

DD is a way better player than I am and I wish that I could listen to the advice someone else gave me to never play with him in a game. Unfortunately this is not possible since we both live in the same area and the dollars are ready for the plucking.

Damon yes this was at Ocean's

Bob any hand I bet for value on the river after thinking so long I am instacalling a c/r for the same reason that I 3bet him with T9.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, i think that we do not need to win every pot. think about how much more fun this hand would have been had you checked preflop, called/checked the flop behind and folded the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love it if I could do this, unfortunately I don't really want to go out like broomcorn's poor uncle.

Re: 75/150 vs HOWMANY not telling you anybody\'s hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad someone thinks I'm good because I'm really starting to wonder if I just ran better than everyone on the planet over hundreds of thousands of hands online and hundreds of hours live in like 10 different games.

DD is a way better player than I am and I wish that I could listen to the advice someone else gave me to never play with him in a game. Unfortunately this is not possible since we both live in the same area and the dollars are ready for the plucking.

Damon yes this was at Ocean's

Bob any hand I bet for value on the river after thinking so long I am instacalling a c/r for the same reason that I 3bet him with T9.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, i think that we do not need to win every pot. think about how much more fun this hand would have been had you checked preflop, called/checked the flop behind and folded the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love it if I could do this, unfortunately I don't really want to go out like broomcorn's poor uncle.

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand that you're gonna have to cross paths with DD, but imo if you find yourself having to play lots of hands vs. him (or guys like him), you need to find better games. they are out there.