Suspected cheating on AP
 

innitial thread

Basically we are almost positive there is a player who somehow has access to others hole cards. (this sounds unbelievably out there, and I didn't want to believe it at first either,but even the preliminary evidence is unbelievable)

I felt it was best for neither the cheaters involved or absolute to be able to read that thread as I think it compromises to an extent, the investigations that are going to be taking place.

Is there anyone who could set up a private forum(invitation only) for us to discuss this stuff? I could do it to I suppose but I bet it would be super easy for a number of people.

/edit I think I've almost got another forum set up. Hopefully by the end of today I will.

Also, matt/ryan/mason, perhaps we should talk on the phone about some of this as the implications of all of this could be quite drastic.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I hope the thread is eventually moved to NVG so people who didn't see it in HSLHE will realize they were cheated and warn the lower limit players that APs software was compromised.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Yeah it's pretty brutal and after investigation we will likely go public with it. I mean, that's probably the morally right thing to do, but also, I don't know if I really want to instill doubt/fear into the industry that puts food on the table for me when most of what goes on is fair. :/

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Also, I was just pmed by fearme and he brings up an interesting point...that if they were able to hack AP, they definitely could take this out on those who got them busted either by hacking or some other methods. I don't think we're dealing with some 15 year old punk kid who thinks he'll be cute. Makes me a little bit nervous.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Can you contact most of the potential victims on AIM?

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

probably

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
after investigation we will likely go public with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This could have very very very very bad consequences.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I know, I'm starting to get a little bit nervous about this. :/ I almost want nothing to do with it and just never play with him/them again and just mind my own business. This is such a dumb situation.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I was still not convinced after reading the thread so I did a quarry on my 2.5M FT database. 25K players of which only one has won greater then 60% of W$SD with a 60+VPiP over 500+ hands. That with the hands posted in the thread tipped the scales.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I agree, i wasn't convinced very quickly either...but the evidence now is super damning.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

DEAD ON IMPACT:
[ QUOTE ]
I contacted AP 2 days ago about suspicous play and they said they would look into it. I also contacted them last night when I saw Doubledrag dump 250k or whatever the amount was and the ladie stated that there wasn't a note about me contacting them a few nights back and also that i should just write security an email.

She ended the conversation saying that I can be reasured that AP is 100% safe. Also, that it's impossible to see another players cards because of their incryption system.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

FWIW I'd say it's like 95% cheating is going on.

Also fwiw, if anything is to "happen," I think we'd need many of the most frequent high stakes players to all send AP whatever independent investigation that gets conducted.

Though like you say, it's debatable whether it's worthwhile in the big picture to try to expose this or not.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

bk, Schneids:

1: I think it's morally wrong to not expose this. To know this info and let others get ripped off at Absolute just because they are not part of the "in crowd" is imo very wrong.

2: I wouldn't be concerned about them being super hackers or anything. My guess is that the most likely thing by far is that they were given access from someone inside AP to a backdoor account as Druff describes.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
bk, Schneids:

1: I think it's morally wrong to not expose this. To know this info and let others get ripped off at Absolute just because they are not part of the "in crowd" is imo very wrong.

2: I wouldn't be concerned about them being super hackers or anything. My guess is that the most likely thing by far is that they were given access from someone inside AP to a backdoor account as Druff describes.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed on both. and AP needs to take the fall for this.

edit: I'm gonna go ahead and BBV this. if I'm wrong and the hacker feels like revenge, I hope he has fun taking over my AP account with < $1K inside and let me tear AP a new one.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

ad,

Just to re-emphasize, it is about a zillion times more likely that this guy has access to a backdoor in the software as opposed to being some kind of superhacker.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

yeah, I'm not wrong or anything, lol.

how unbelievably, ridiculously dumb is AP for having a backdoor account in the firstplace? *goddamn*

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

all,

bring the original thread back. I don't care what it does to the games in the short term; hiding this is extremely reprehensible.

I'm posting the details in BBV and will continue to do so, anyway. AP cannot get away with something this big privately - it *must* be outed, if only to scare everyone else into watchfulness.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

ad,

"bring the original thread back."

While I think this situation should not be hidden, I think it is OK to hide the thread w/ details/examples. Then again, unless the dude is a super idiot, once it's clear he's exposed, it's not like anything noticed in the thread is hard to figure out.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

no, it needs to be brought back, for reasons like this one from p5's:

OK, SOMEONE!! Explain this call please.
by Stuman123 on 9/13/2007 00:45



HOW does he make this call?!?!?!?! Heads up in the 1K on AP....This makes no sense.




Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($428520)
Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s]
Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI:($428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s]
Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]

this hand was from 2 days ago and someone just mentioned it to me now; either this is the greatest read ever or it goes wider than just HSNL. either way, all of the names need to come out ASAP.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

potripper's pokerdb:



Date Buyin Tournament/Event Place Entrants Winnings
9/12/2007 $1,000 NL Hold'em 1 98 $30,000.00
7/5/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 234 234 —
7/5/2007 $50 NL Hold'em 140 148 —

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Holy hell. And that means he's entered 3 in all ever?


Sorry for asking, I don't know what pokerdb does exactly, or its scope/coverage rate.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
potripper's pokerdb:



Date Buyin Tournament/Event Place Entrants Winnings
9/12/2007 $1,000 NL Hold'em 1 98 $30,000.00
7/5/2007 $5 NL Hold'em 234 234 —
7/5/2007 $50 NL Hold'em 140 148 —

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. Talk about damning evidence, that final hand of the AP $1k is about as bad as it gets.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Holy hell. And that means he's entered 3 in all ever?


Sorry for asking, I don't know what pokerdb does exactly, or its scope/coverage rate.

[/ QUOTE ]
correct db, 3 ever.

Its actually 4 now. He played 2 on 7/15 being one of the first out, and a $20 the same day as the $1k.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

ad,

Oh, wow.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Jesus christ this is insane.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

ad,

This guy seems to be just about the dumbest cheater ever.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

He's reminding me of Richard Pryor in Superman 3, who scams all the half-cents off people, then turns up in a Ferrari for work.

Inside job? hit and runner? Maybe he's been around for a while, and gets his name changed for each big hit?

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

db,

For the kids, you should refer to Office Space instead of Superman 3 when referring to that scheme.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Is anybody/everybody aware of the AP RAZZ debacle?

Basically, AP incorrectly awarded the pot to the player with the losing hand due to a glitch in the programming. I'll find the thread and link it.

Could somebody more computer-savvy than myself state whether these two things are related? Is it possible AP software has so many bugs, glitches and holes that anything is possible?

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

wtf's a "super"man?

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

ah,

Think of the dude from Smallville as a grownup.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Here's the razz thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...page=0&vc=1

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I was going to mention that, but there's no point in tossing that in there since it'd just confuse people.

that said, AP's programming appeared to be done by retarded howler monkeys *prior to* today.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
ad,

This guy seems to be just about the dumbest cheater ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

right hahah.. i mean, you could just play "normally" and just knowing the other guys cards at certain times could increase your win hugely

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I worked for AP as a prop almost from the start. I have not in a couple of years. After Gian left I can say that I have not trusted them at all. They have pulled a ton of shady stuff including stuff in the zoo as MH will confirm I am sure. AP insiders having something to do with this would not shock me at all, the UB/AP marriage has become the shadiest group currently in poker IMO.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
ad,

This guy seems to be just about the dumbest cheater ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, how can he be so stupid as to think people wouldn't notice this? Here he has a ridiculous money-making ability if he just manages not to get super greedy, and he ruins it by getting super greedy. Thank god for human greed or we may never have found out about this.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

He might not be even close to the first one doing this. He might be just the dumbest.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
how unbelievably, ridiculously dumb is AP for having a backdoor account in the firstplace? *goddamn*



[/ QUOTE ]

AP probably farms their programming out the same way they farm their tech help out. Lord only knows what kind of checks they have in place to prevent unscrupulous programmers from leaving backdoors in the programming so they can get super-paid.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
He might not be even close to the first one doing this. He might be just the dumbest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. Plus, I'm sure the guy really thought it through but ended up being greedy. His best course of action was probably to build a bot to play without emotion.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how unbelievably, ridiculously dumb is AP for having a backdoor account in the firstplace? *goddamn*



[/ QUOTE ]

AP probably farms their programming out the same way they farm their tech help out. Lord only knows what kind of checks they have in place to prevent unscrupulous programmers from leaving backdoors in the programming so they can get super-paid.

[/ QUOTE ]

AP bought their S. Korean software provider about 2 years ago and brought thrm in house.