To cbet or not to cbet
 

So I've seen a handful of posts in here about cbetting, and I know that figuring out whether or not to cbet, and how much to bet, especially in lategame situations, can be tricky. Here is a hand I played in the wcoop 215 6 max second chance. I guess I could have posted it in hsmtt but I thought it would be better here. It's the kind of decision that people tend to skip over without really thinking it through.

We're in the money, 84 got paid, I'm something like 25/35 when this hand goes down.

SB is decent, which means I know he's good enough to be playing a reasonable range, but I don't know whether or not that range is as tight as it probably should be, or if it includes stuff like JT. He has not flatted OOP very often, maybe three or four times in the past hour; this is probably the first time he's done it from the SB rather than the BB. (but note that if he were going to, albeit with a somewhat limited range, this is the ideal stack size situation for it as an alternative to 3betting). BB is relatively new to table, but has been aggressive and a little erratic; he moved here with 18k, shoved his way to 23 or something, then doubled up by reshoving JTo and getting there v KQ. Obviously he's calling fairly wide given the odds laid by my smallish raise and the Sb's call.

So both of them have jacks and pairs in their range (but plenty of other stuff too). Don't overrate how much my reads on them mean - this hand and hands like it are mostly about the board texture, my hand, their preflop ranges, and a set of generic responses that most opponents take with most hands. (e.g. No "Oh BB's aggressive so do x"; BB having shoved a few hands and then restole once is like 5% of what matters in this hand - the opponent read stuff that *really* matters is stuff that's hard to know, like "how many hands does he check-call the flop with but fold to a turn shove?").

So, after all the build up. Do you bet?

If yes: Why are you betting? How much do you bet (and what does that betsize accomplish)? What are you planning to do on the turn if called?

Are there any hands you wouldn't bet? (Assume your range is like 75% standard "good hands" i.e. pairs, big aces, kq, kj; 15% suited connector type crap (i.e. 97s which is great if we're deep but here raising that instead of 72o basically a randomizer); 10% "[censored] it i feel like raising this time."

A secondary question which is obviously very relevant: how often (that is, with what percentage of their preflop range) is one of them checkraising me?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1500 (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB (t78970)
BB (t56090)
Hero (t28392)
MP (t100940)
Button (t13615)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t3888</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t3138, BB calls t2388.

Flop: (t10014) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks,

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

First I think we should check the possible ranges of villains - specially of SB, who is more dangerous here i think.

I would set him on:
22-99,AT,AJ,AQ,KQ,KJ,QJ,JTs(?)

With: AJ,KJ,QJ,JT,33,77 he would consider a c/r - so as answer to your second question should be in 6/15 or 40%.

With: 88,99 he migh flat call your c-bet, as well as with something like KsQs.

So to answer your first question i would not c-bet here, but take the free-card a reorientate on the turn. maybe we get a possibility for a delayed c-bet here, maybe we draw one of our 2 out, or maybe things get just clearer.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

Ok, I don't really care because I didn't post this for advice, and if no one's interested then w/e, but when the forum split happened a lot of people here were worried about hsmtters never posting here and/or the forum content being weaker.

I put a little bit of time into a detailed post about a subject a lot of novices screw up (or don't understand why they're doing what they're doing). I expected it'd generate discussion.

I was probably going to follow up a good discussion with a theory post.

Oh well.

(No insult implied to lev; just that one response does not = discussion)

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

without looking at the math i generally just check behind here in a 3 way pot, given any reasonable ranges i do not think we get two folds on the flop enough of the time here

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

What I do know for sure is that I hate hate hate this situation and really am not sure what to do here. Small pairs in EP late tourney are probably the weakest part of my game.

I think people usually say the fold 55 PF UTG, unless you think a raise is gonna take it down.

I think a cbet of like 5000 is
1. too much of your stack. I mean if you fold you've just put in 1/4 of your stack pre and post flop. I don't think that should be happening.

2. like always getting raised. I mean unless the table has been really tight and folded to c-bets a lot.

I think I just check/fold here because I didn't hit my set.

I think I also limp PF and just setmine. I think you're deep enough for the implied odds to still be there. I don't like your PF bet size because it just encourages callers getting good odds against your generally weak hand.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

I just typed a response, then deleted it because I wasn't really getting your question.

This is a great post because it takes the thinking away from "what are my cards vs. opponents cards" and into the late game realm of "how does my hand hold up against the ranges of two opponents who have called my UTG raise from the blinds given their stack sizes and the texture of the board and the fact that they both checked to me."

To answer your question, no I do not bet. I don't bet because I don't want to invest at least 25% of my stack turning my hand into a bluff.

If I were to bet and get CRed, I would fold. If I bet and get called, I think I might just get it in on the turn, but I would hate it because I think it screams, "Go away please!" -- which is why I would just check behind on the flop.

I check behind because, to answer your second question, I feel that a CR is highly likely if SB or BB hit that flop, and you are not doing well against anything that they decide to CR you with.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

dave limping in here is bad imo. I usually just fold pre in these spots because i dont want to put myself in such a marginal spot.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

OK, I'll contribute in the interest of discussion, even though I have no idea what I'm doing.

First, what might the villains have opened with?

If SB is 50BB deep, and he flat called rather than raised--he's not desperate to get it in, and he's not anxious to get you out. To me, that says he has a pretty good hand he wants to play, probably one that needs improvement. I would exclude lower SCs, as they suck to play OOP, and low PPs, because you're too short to pay off a set. Let's say 77-TT, A9s-AJs, ATo-AJo, KQ, QJs, JTs, T9s.

BB is looser, and he's getting almost 4:1, but he's still deep, and he must have some respect for a UTG raiser and a decent caller. So balancing it all out, let's give him the same range as SB.

Second, what do you need to C-Bet? I'm going to assume that you will get out if you are check-raised, and if you are flat called, you will be very unhappy if the turn is an 8 or higher (and reasonably unhappy if it's anything else other than a 5). So pretty much you have to take the pot now or it's gone. Standard C-Bets at 5.5/11 tend to average 2/3 of the pot, so you'd need both villains to fold 40% of the time to break even. That means your C-Bet would need to get each villain to fold ~60% of their hands, taking into account that they will be getting 1.5:1.

Of the range I've assigned the villains, you could probably A9-Ts, ATo, KQs, T9s, and maybe 88. The math here is far beyond my simple mind, but it doesn't look like a C-Bet makes sense if this analysis makes sense.

Of course, in the heat of the moment, I'd have to rely on rules of thumb, and one that I have is not to C-Bet into more than one player if there is a T or higher on the board, unless I have a really good read that tells me otherwise.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

because I really like your post and not because I know something about it I am willing to contribute

let me clarify i am part of those who as you say rightly often srew up cont bet

supposing your opponents pays you respect as a good and thinking player

given the range you stated they can put you on a big kiker J or over pair 1/3 of the time (roughthly)

I assume they know that you would hesitate to C bet with some of your holdings ie 22

so they have to think that if they have a Jack you will have them in kiker trouble or big trouble something like 40-50% of the time

with a 2/3 pot bet you pose them problem, they will see you as commited or nearly so they won t want to bluff you that often
they know it will be difficult to draw because they are likely to face an all in draw on trun if they don t hit there

you are hurting there stak if they loose it and worse you are back in the game

worse what they don t know is that actually you are not commited but within your range are a few flush draw which even if they have you beat they still could loose

so i am not sure that it is a clear check raise with a JT and I am not sure it is such a cristal clear call (but i am a bit timid)

I think if there range is as stated below 50%+ of the time at least the SB can t call

the BB being more looser will have a harder time hitting that flop and since he will be HU with you he won t feel too happy about his hand

5% of th time they call you catch a 5

after that it all depend on your table image, how much do they know you don t cbet all the time etc

but I would bet that flop knowing it will give them a hard time

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I've seen a handful of posts in here about cbetting, and I know that figuring out whether or not to cbet, and how much to bet, especially in lategame situations, can be tricky. Here is a hand I played in the wcoop 215 6 max second chance. I guess I could have posted it in hsmtt but I thought it would be better here. It's the kind of decision that people tend to skip over without really thinking it through.

We're in the money, 84 got paid, I'm something like 25/35 when this hand goes down.

SB is decent, which means I know he's good enough to be playing a reasonable range, but I don't know whether or not that range is as tight as it probably should be, or if it includes stuff like JT. He has not flatted OOP very often, maybe three or four times in the past hour; this is probably the first time he's done it from the SB rather than the BB. (but note that if he were going to, albeit with a somewhat limited range, this is the ideal stack size situation for it as an alternative to 3betting). BB is relatively new to table, but has been aggressive and a little erratic; he moved here with 18k, shoved his way to 23 or something, then doubled up by reshoving JTo and getting there v KQ. Obviously he's calling fairly wide given the odds laid by my smallish raise and the Sb's call.

So both of them have jacks and pairs in their range (but plenty of other stuff too). Don't overrate how much my reads on them mean - this hand and hands like it are mostly about the board texture, my hand, their preflop ranges, and a set of generic responses that most opponents take with most hands. (e.g. No "Oh BB's aggressive so do x"; BB having shoved a few hands and then restole once is like 5% of what matters in this hand - the opponent read stuff that *really* matters is stuff that's hard to know, like "how many hands does he check-call the flop with but fold to a turn shove?").

So, after all the build up. Do you bet?

If yes: Why are you betting? How much do you bet (and what does that betsize accomplish)? What are you planning to do on the turn if called?

Are there any hands you wouldn't bet? (Assume your range is like 75% standard "good hands" i.e. pairs, big aces, kq, kj; 15% suited connector type crap (i.e. 97s which is great if we're deep but here raising that instead of 72o basically a randomizer); 10% "[censored] it i feel like raising this time."

A secondary question which is obviously very relevant: how often (that is, with what percentage of their preflop range) is one of them checkraising me?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1500 (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB (t78970)
BB (t56090)
Hero (t28392)
MP (t100940)
Button (t13615)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t3888</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t3138, BB calls t2388.

Flop: (t10014) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>SB checks, BB checks,

[/ QUOTE ]

1st of all...thx for posting here. Your posts are always very thought-provoking and rich in content.

In terms of your hand equity on this flop, it's obv that you have more (preflop) equity vs BB than SB. My problem with betting is twofold:

1. We're not ahead of both their ranges combined, and we need both of them to fold in order for a c-bet to be profitable here. I don't think that u can continue if you c-bet 5-7K and get called. Other than a 5, very few turn cards will improve your hand and the ones that do only add a gutshot.

2. Even if SB/or BB folds x% of his range that we are ahead of, this may be negated by the fact that they will c/r semi-bluff with FD/FD+gutshot, or call and improve on the turn.

I realize that checking behind almost concedes the hand, since it will be tough to rep any hands on the turn, but committing anymore of your stack is just too costly here.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

yeah i agree with crunch that this would be a good time to c-bet.

although some js might be in their range very few of them will feel esp comfortable standing up to a lot of pressure, same with 88-tt that also should be in there.

a good sized cbet here will probably be c/r by only hands that beat our range (which i would hope to be perceived as pretty tight both due to our position, our stack and the fact it is 3handed to flop) plus some Axss and probably KQss both of which we are dogs against anyways. * *jj, 77 ??(the other set 2s 3s or4s dont remember..) AA, Axss KQss 109ss 98ss, looks like a reasonable c/r range, point being its quite unlikely this flop has hit their hand hard

whereas a big part of their range could be c/c flop and reevaluate turn, probably folding to a second barrel quite often. futher our actual hand here has very little chance to end up the best hand at showdown, meaning if we dont take an aggro approach we will be giving away this pot most of the time.


edit. i mean its good if we are prepared to fire a second barrel

edit 2, damn i suck at posting *

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

[ QUOTE ]
edit. i mean its good if we are prepared to fire a second barrel

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, just in the interest of discussion...


After a C-Bet, Hero will have ~20k behind with a pot of ~20k (one caller) or ~25k (two callers). So a second barrel of ~12k will certainly commit Hero. Do we really want to take a path that will probably take us to the felt on a pair of fives?

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

oh, if both of them call, keep going will seems quite suicidal. so lets not discuss that.oops, maybe youcan get my meaning in that messed up thing trying to pose as a sentence

if one calls (and i think i prefer sb, description on BB would lead me to belive he will find a call with a marginal hand easier than sb) we will have a bit less than a PSB left so the only option is to push turn, with the spade draw out there it shouldnt look too desperate??!! i think the betsizing would look like 6500ish on flop and then 18k into 22k on turn when we shove

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

and yea i think this could be a good spot to felt 55 if we agree with my reasoning above

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

raise more preflop build flop with big hands not 55.

check fold if you don't improve. c-betting is not profitable.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

OK,so I thought I'd take a shot as well.Although I express myself oh-so-bad when I try to write down my thoughts,and I basically have no clue anyway,I really like these kind of posts,and I really appreciate you posting here,reading stuff like this will definately make me better.

Here we go;
First of,what is your plan here? Are you playing the hand stricktly for set value? If so,you obv c/f to any bet. I will assume that you are not though,raising UTG.Yea,I know you would prefer to take it down pre,but that didn't happen,and I would think it is good to have a plan B.

First of all,I try to narrow down their holdings.No major reads,but we'll assume BB is wider than SB juding on his previous action. I think i"ll assign a pretty wide range here as he might have been tempted to come along for the ride after SB's call.

I doubt if either of them has a big hand,with these stacks you would think they'd both raise.SB because he doesn't want BB in,BB because he doesn't want to play 3 handed. ALso,although I don't know anything about your play so far,I would think they would both put you on a decent hand.After all,you did raise UTG.

The problem w the J is that is a card that's definately in their range.Other posters have put up ranges,so I'm not going to do that,other than say I disagree slightly,I think they are a little wider than what you guys say.

I cbet here would be natural,and I would think SB/BB expects it.Problem is that any decent cbet pretty much commits us,and I think you will get c/r ALOT here,of course what's worse is that they might even do it with hands like middle pair,and we really can't beat anything.

The other option is the check.Of course the villains might see that as weakness and bet the turn with absolutely nothing,in which case a cbet would have won it.

Having rambled on,personally I would check this.Too many times we are c/r here. I would also fold to any turnbet,I do think however,that I would bet if it is checked to me on the turn,Of course there are a few scare cards that'll make me check turn as well,but I do think that if they check....well,if they have any piece of it,they have to bet the turn,so this is a great spot for the delayed cbet,at least I think so.

I would really like to know what your plan for this hand was. I don't think I ever raise small pp in this situation.The position and the stacksize just makes it to tricky to play after the flop...at least it does for me,so I'm really wondering what you were thinking here.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

OK, I'll bite. I'd presume that SB is not check-folding much of his pf range here, which I would suggest will not be many speculative hands which will not be profitable to play three-way OOP. I'd presume that BB will check-raise a lot on this board. SB is just going to check call with 88, IMO.

I'd check. Two-flush j-high boards are not boards I want to c-bet into the blinds when one is aggro and one appears strong. OTOH, we're not winning unless we bet, so maybe bet and call if BB shoves and fold if SB shoves is more profitable?

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

can we have your thoughs on the matter or some more opinions as it isn t totally clear cut in my mind

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

i'm exhausted right now but I'll make a post tomorrow

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

OK, I'll give this a try because it's a very interesting subject and many plays are valid.

Ideally, you hoped to steal the blinds, I might add that being UTG (and I assume you've played fairly tight, so your image should be declaring a pretty fair hand) so a fair price to test the waters.

I think a check here is a tactical mistake because you learn nothing of your position in the hand. You're worried about being behind ,being check raised and there is a flush draw available. Now, if someone has the J at least that reduces the chance they can hit a flush and if they are on a flush draw it's not worth the price to price them off the draw based on your stack size. You were the one that demonstrated strength preflop and with the checks I'd do a simple 1BB raise, a cheap c-bet but at least you're serving up some bait. If they both fanned and don't feel the urge to bluff you may take the pot. If they check raise you, well your out for fairly cheap. If no check raise your likely to get one to drop out so at least your heads up. If they both call, well .... hope for the 5 of clubs.

Weak but fairly prudent.

Cheers

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a check here is a tactical mistake because you learn nothing of your position in the hand. Cheers

[/ QUOTE ]


you dont always have to put chips in the pot to recognize -ev situations.i think we are pissing into a strong wind here.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

I see your point,but the reason why I like the check here is that I really think you will be c/r a majority of the time.Also,if you cbet normal size,you are pretty much committed to the hand,while a small cbet is just sooooo weak,everytime I see people do that,I just have to raise,it's like a sickness,but they should be punished when they bet like 1/5 of the pot.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

Yes, I realize that your subject to easy check raise but …

-if SB emotionally raises the weak raise and BB has a hand they are now engaged
-if SB check raises with a hand and BB is on a flush draw or with hand they are now engaged
- same scenario in reverse if BB does the raising and SB is trapping

More than one way to get something out of a pot you don’t win.

Cheers

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

I saw this a little too late, hopefully, I have something new to add:

Looks like a pretty easy check here. It's a perfect spot, given your stack, for J10, JK, JQ, JA, any spade draw, set, or adventerous (and why not, given your c-bet range) 88 or 99 to CR here and protect his hand. Notice that Js comprise a large part of the ranges here.

The board is harmless enough for players to CR here without worrying about draws and what not. When you factor in that sometimes you are getting called as well, I think it's an easy check, because even if you bet 5000, you are not getting this pot enough to make the bet +EV. And, I can't empahsize enough, your stack size is very exploitable here.

Also, I obv. wasn't at the table, but if I feel BB is joining in a lot of pots (not sure how many), then I may try a different line here than raising 2.5X BB. Like folding EP or raising a little more than 3XBB. Though, I think fold &gt; raise &gt; call here (calling is just blah).

Barry

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

great post!

i guess this is a question of how well this board fits into our opponents "playing zone". Unfortunately this boards hits a whole lot of hands of both of their pf-ranges given the preflop action. The second problem is that we are a: gonna be semibluff/raised pretty often and b: that, if we are gonna get called by weaker draws or margnial made hands, firing one more barrel would be suicidal unless we hit one of the remaining 5´s.

Both of our opponents have so much equity here that they imo will not nearly fold ~43% of their range.

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

i agree that this flop probably hits one of them a good number of times, but this flop isnt hitting them hard very often. if we think they are willing to stack of here with jx or 88-tt then obv we just give up the hand. but isnt it much more likely they will c/c and c/f a decent number of times on turn? further with our stack this is a pot we really wanna pick. giving up means our stealing will become very awkward, i think the the ev of picking up this pot via aggression is worth a lot mote than the times that we have to fold to a c/r and start pushbotting

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

[ QUOTE ]
i agree that this flop probably hits one of them a good number of times, but this flop isnt hitting them hard very often. if we think they are willing to stack of here with jx or 88-tt then obv we just give up the hand. but isnt it much more likely they will c/c and c/f a decent number of times on turn? further with our stack this is a pot we really wanna pick. giving up means our stealing will become very awkward, i think the the ev of picking up this pot via aggression is worth a lot mote than the times that we have to fold to a c/r and start pushbotting

[/ QUOTE ]

both SB/BB won't stack off they have you covered by a lot.

Say you cont. bet 5K. I say you pick up the pot less than 33% of the time. Say you pick it up 25% of the time. The other 75% you are either getting CRed or called. What is your plan if a spade hits? a 4? an ace? Another J? Because now, on the turn, you'd have to pick up the pot more than 50% of the time to make this profitable, that is assuming you have the gaul to fire another bullet (psychology goes into this, because despite our theory plans, we now put our tourney lives on the line with a mid pair on what could very well be a bluff).

The whole thing looks like ass, and the more I think about it, the more I like a fold preflop. However, I don't care if my stack size is awkard because I still have enough to 3-bet for FE and you're going to have to face an awkard stack at one point or another in a tournament.

Barry

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

I like a delayed C-bet here, on any non Ace/non spade turn card...

I don't really like this board texture following two calls; if i flopped flush draw/TP/combo draw/set in BB/SB here then I'd probably check/raise so taking the free card and re-evaluating is a nice cheap option IMO

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

right, its not a they stacking off, wrong word, double us then.

my plan is to push any non spade/nonJ turn.

i put out a lot more thought in the previous post, actually i think i got the potsize wrong, meaning a 2/3 bet on flop wont be 6500ish and more like 8k, thats kinda bad i think, so that will probably leave us with to small a stack on turn to get any folds??!!

Re: To cbet or not to cbet
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise more preflop build flop with big hands not 55.

check fold if you don't improve. c-betting is not profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

rediculous, this late in the tourney your raise is fine assuming you are being concistant.

To bet or not to bet is more of a game specific. You are facing a solid and eradic player. I would be prone to just checking.