NL HU SNG 11$
 

second hand in the sng. didn`t play against villain before.

FullTiltPoker Game #3531253077: $11 + $0.50 Heads Up Sit & Go (26969515), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:52:14 ET - 2007/09/11
Seat 1: villain(1,515)
Seat 2: hero (1,485)
villainposts the small blind of 15
hero posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Qh Jc]
villain raises to 60
hero calls 30
*** FLOP *** [Jh 6c Qs]
hero bets 120
villain calls 120
*** TURN *** [Jh 6c Qs] [6h]
her bets 120
villain calls 120
*** RIVER *** [Jh 6c Qs 6h] [9s]
hero bets 270
villain raises to 1,215, and is all in
hero ????????????????


call or fold?? i wasn`t sure what to do...

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

What on earth is going on with your turnbet?

As played I fold.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

yeah 1/3 turnbet looks weak... i know....

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

As played its a definite call. But yeah, bet more on turn. I think you see a straight or a 6 alot here but you also see lot's of other [censored] enough to make this a good call.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

Anybody who is capable of folding top 2 on that board in an $11 SNG has to be capable of making a *much* better read than I've ever had on any opponent at that level, ever.

Even at higher stakes, I see people push in situations like this with AA, KK, a lone queen (and not even necessarily with the A or K kicker), or even complete nothing way too often to fold the best two pair.

Then again, I'm on a MASSIVELY negative downswing, and in the process of trying to put together a long video to hopefully have people point out how truly stupid I really am, so maybe you shouldn't listen to me. :/

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

lol@TNixon

after his push i wasn`t sure if i`m ahead or not. so i decided to fold and wait for a better spot to put the chips in.

but if i read the HH now i may should call the allin.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]


Even at higher stakes, I see people push in situations like this with AA, KK


[/ QUOTE ]


AA and KK beat you here, but thanks for proving my point.

I dont get why people use the "its a 11$" argument to CALL stuff. If anything it should be an argument for pushing yourself.

Ive played 240 6s and 11s and I just dont see these people everybody is talking about. They are CALLING stations, not pushing stations.

They might go for stupid bluffs more often than midstake players, but they very very rarely push a lone Q no kicker here because theyre "overvaluing" it. They may push it as a bluff.

The reason why lowstake HU opposition sucks so much is cause they usually play FR or 6max. They are UNDERvaluing hands more than they are overvaluing.

Even if its a bluff it isnt a bad one cause hes repping a real hand. KT or a made FH as he is IP.

Im not sure how much research you guys have done on "How does the average 11$ opposition react to a 3barreled riverscarecard if you bet the turn weakly" but Im not calling this.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]
so i decided to fold and wait for a better spot to put the chips in.

[/ QUOTE ]
You must see lots of spots better than top 2 on relatively unthreatening boards than I do. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I did realize posthumously that you're behind to AA or KK as well, though, a factor which has almost certainly contributed to my massive downswing. :/

Basically you're losing to sets, any 6, overpairs, KT and 8T, while basically only beating a bluff or a retard, so I guess this isn't a bad spot to fold.

Part of my problem is that I'm too willing to assign the retard title, especially at $11s.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]
They might go for stupid bluffs more often than midstake players, but they very very rarely push a lone Q no kicker here because theyre "overvaluing" it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I see this on a very consistent basis at $33s and $55s, much less $11s. And it's not necessarily because they're overvaluing it, but because the board pair means they're at least tied with most other queens. And to be honest, the small bets look more like a scared weak queen than anything else, so it's not at all difficult to imagine AQ or KQ feeling pretty good about their hand.

But yeah, you're probably right.

Of course, I would have also made a much bigger bet on the turn, making it *very* difficult to fold the river if he just called (but making it much more likely that a 6 is going to push the turn, in which case I'd probably give more thought to folding to a raise on the turn)

[ QUOTE ]
The reason why lowstake HU opposition sucks so much is cause they usually play FR or 6max. They are UNDERvaluing hands more than they are overvaluing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've also seen 3 barrels from TP weak kicker, or even second or third pair, often enough to disagree with this (I see *way* more opponents that overvalue hands than I do that undervalue), but your mileage may vary.

Oh yeah, and if we're offering games played as evidence of what we have or haven't seen:
[ QUOTE ]
Ive played 240 6s and 11s and I just dont see these people everybody is talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've played 1100+ games $11 and less, and three times that many if we throw in games up through $50.

Sad that I can still suck bad enough to lose $3k of a $3500 bankroll after playing that many games.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

holy crap, 1100 11s and less?

Can you post some PT screens in the LC thread? Id be really interested in what your stats look like.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

I don't have pokertracker. (stupid, I know)

My sharkscope graph looks like complete ass right now though, and my confidence level is at a complete all-time low after dropping 3k in a week (following a very long build-up from $100 to $3500, including about $2k worth of cashouts and a *ton* of money trying to satellite in FT's WSOP bracelet race events, and another boatload satelliting into FTOPS events, and playing big MTT tourneys I had no business buying directly into, so it was really more like an 8k buildup primarily through HUSNGs), which is why I'm in the process of trying to put together a post that will likely be so long that nobody will want to read it, begging the forum to HALPMEH PLEASE by watching a video that will be so long nobody will want to watch, because once again, I can no longer afford my coach.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

For what it's worth, though, over those 1184 games, for about the first 750 I was just barely over break-even (superslow learner), and overall ended up with just over $600 profit and average ROI of 8%.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have pokertracker. (stupid, I know)

[/ QUOTE ]


change something about being stupid?

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

Well, here are my thoughts about pokertracker:

Outside of analyzing your own stats (and I have a bunch of perl scripts to gather various bits of data from hand histories, so that if I wanted to see most of the things pokertracker could tell me about my own play, it would be very easy to gather and throw into excel), I'm not sure PT is really useful for analyzing your opponents in HUSNGs. If I played more HUCASH I would definitely buy it, and after coming to the conclusion that overall variance is actually likely to be lower at HUCASH than it is in HUSNGS, I probably will start playing more cash as soon as I figure out what the hell I've done to lose so badly and recover to a level where I have enough to buy-in at NL100 on a regular basis, but I'm not there yet.

Having said all that, if pokertracker could just automatically import (or at least try to deduce) tournament results for HUSNGs, I probably would have purchased it already. But since it doesn't, (and because I've played *WAAAAAYYY* too many HUSNGs to even consider manually entering who won each one), I've had to build up my own set of tools for figuring winrates and other things.

I also play regularly on two separate computers, which causes some potential problems with pokertracker databases. (problems that I have with my own tools, but that part of the problem is as simple as copying all the hand histories from one to the other. I don't even know what the solution is with pokertracker, since it keeps track of histories that it has processed by changing the filename, which is hopelessly stupid, IMO)

But since I do have my own tools, there doesn't seem to be a ton of value in it, even though it's only $50 or whatever. Combine that with the fact that PT would break all my tools by mucking around with the history files, and you can maybe substitute "stubborn" for "stupid".

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Another interesting bit. I realized that I didn't start playing turbos until I was in the range where I was playing $22 and higher, so all but 12 of those games are regulars, not turbos, so they'd be $2s, $5s, and $10s.

OP: Sorry for this horrible derailing of your thread. I apologize, and will not spend any more space whining or talking about myself. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

Whenever I play low stakes HU SnG's, I have to keep repeating to myself: "Beware of donks overbetting the river!" Almost every time I ignored this and called with a marginal hand, I regretted it immediately. Pick out the most obvious strong hand based on the board texture, and they have at least that. I don't think QJ is good here.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

easy fold. it's one thing if you were in position and it went check/bet for three streets and you are asking whether to bet the river.

but here he pushed the river. this is not how AK/AQ/KQ play this hand. all three are raising your flop bet for protection (AK pushes the flop because that's what they do on this flop or they fold, or call you down all the way). when he pushes the river, kiss any combo counting/equity analysis goodbye: he has you beat a huge % of the time. people don't bluff raise the river at the 11s and they don't push their Q for value on this board.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]
easy fold. it's one thing if you were in position and it went check/bet for three streets and you are asking whether to bet the river.

but here he pushed the river. this is not how AK/AQ/KQ play this hand. all three are raising your flop bet for protection (AK pushes the flop because that's what they do on this flop or they fold, or call you down all the way). when he pushes the river, kiss any combo counting/equity analysis goodbye: he has you beat a huge % of the time. people don't bluff raise the river at the 11s and they don't push their Q for value on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank you

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

It is highly recommended that you give the opinion of somebody who recently dumped 85% of their bankroll a much smaller weight than the opinion of people who probably have not dumped 85% of their bankrolls.

In fact, I would recommend you ignore that other dumbass donk entirely. Even if he still somewhat disagrees that people will push with almost any queen there, especially given the weakness you showed on the turn, and believes that there are plenty of people out there who are more than happy to "slowplay" top pair, which makes it a marginally bad call instead of an absolutely horrid one.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

ok guys thanks alot for the response

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

Damn, flame fest.

OP, bet more on the turn next time and either check call or bet bigger and call a shove. That way your pot odds are better and you probably get about as great of a % of bluffs.

Basically you turn this hand into slightly profitable at best to something you know is profitable.

Another option you have is to check the turn and check call the river. There aren't many scare cards to come and you'll probably be more profitable overall in that situation against more players at this level.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

easy fold. I said it before and i will say it again: a huge all-in-river-bet in a <50$ HUSNG is ALMOST ALWAYS a monster. My bankroll would be so much bigger if i would just have folded to any bet like this.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]
Damn, flame fest.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol.

Does it really count as a flame fest if I'm flaming myself?

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Even at higher stakes, I see people push in situations like this with AA, KK


[/ QUOTE ]


AA and KK beat you here, but thanks for proving my point.

I dont get why people use the "its a 11$" argument to CALL stuff. If anything it should be an argument for pushing yourself.

Ive played 240 6s and 11s and I just dont see these people everybody is talking about. They are CALLING stations, not pushing stations.

They might go for stupid bluffs more often than midstake players, but they very very rarely push a lone Q no kicker here because theyre "overvaluing" it. They may push it as a bluff.

The reason why lowstake HU opposition sucks so much is cause they usually play FR or 6max. They are UNDERvaluing hands more than they are overvaluing.

Even if its a bluff it isnt a bad one cause hes repping a real hand. KT or a made FH as he is IP.

Im not sure how much research you guys have done on "How does the average 11$ opposition react to a 3barreled riverscarecard if you bet the turn weakly" but Im not calling this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good post.

I think a fold is good here. You should move up soon [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a fold is good here. You should move up soon

[/ QUOTE ]
And I should definitely move down.

Oh, wait. I did. Only it wasn't by choice.

lol

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]


Having said all that, if pokertracker could just automatically import (or at least try to deduce) tournament results for HUSNGs, I probably would have purchased it already. But since it doesn't, (and because I've played *WAAAAAYYY* too many HUSNGs to even consider manually entering who won each one), I've had to build up my own set of tools for figuring winrates and other things.



[/ QUOTE ]

Pokertracker CAN semi-automatically import HH of HUSNGs. POP3? It does work.

Re: NL HU SNG 11$
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pokertracker CAN semi-automatically import HH of HUSNGs. POP3? It does work.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that the thing that you have to have the tournament lobby open for it to work at all or something like that?

I have about 5400 histories that I would want PT to import whose lobbies have long since gone the way of the dodo.