Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

Playing at the Green Valley Casino in Vegas. I've been at the table for around an hour, and have won a few decent sized pots without a showdown. Directly to my left is a very, very good (and aggressive) older player with around $800 in front of him (max buy in is $200).

He was raising a very high percentage of hands. He had 2 different raise sizes. With a big hand (AQ-AK, big pairs) he would raise $15-$20 depending on his position and how many people were in the hand. With non premium hands that he liked (pretty much ATC) he would make a small raise to $7 or so.

Early on in the session, there was a $6 raise by a MP player follwed by a series of calls. I was in the sb with K2o, and decided to make a play. I was pretty sure that the OR was weak (live $1-$2 players virtually never raise $6 with a strong hand preflop) so I was confident that I could pull off a sort of squeeze play here. I raised to $36, planning to expose my deuce if I took down the pot. The raise worked and I showed my 2, hoping to establish a loose image (I was actually playing very very tight) and possibly set up a play for later.

My general strategy was this - once I picked up a big hand (any big pair, maybe AK) I would limp, hoping for the aggressive player to my left to make his standard $7 raise (which he was honestly doing around 75% of the time that it was limped or folded to him). When the action got back to me, I could make a large reraise with the K2 hand fresh in everyone (and certainly his) minds.

So, I pick up JJ, limp, and I get what I want. He raises to $7, gets a few callers. It comes back to me and I again make it $36. He calls, and so does 1 other player who is barely covered by the reraise. We'll say there is around $120 in the main pot preflop. I have around $300 behind, and like I said before, our villain has us well covered.

I guess my first question (before we get to the flop) is this - what do you think of my general strategy preflop?

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

I will be first to act on the flop, btw...

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

I don't think JJ is good enough of a hand to do this. You're setting people up to call your preflop RR... you want a hand strong enough to get it in on any flop like AA, KK, AK, and just maybe QQ. You see too many overcards with JJ to do this.


Also, how many callers did he get? The $36 strikes me as small if there was as much action as you suggest (4 callers before you?). He's getting set odds with any pair, premiums can shove and have you crushed, and closing the action one can easily rationalize putting in $29 to win the $90 in the pot (and $270 in your stack) with big cards or even SCs. Did you open limp JJ?

Congratulations getting yourself into a big pot, out of position, against an aggressive player, with very little idea what he has.

Just my $0.02.

I'm interested to see the flop.

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

I like how you set it up, but I don't think JJ is the hand to make this play with. With your K2off play, you was hoping to get action with a monster when you play it the same way later. Allright, you got your action but IMO, JJ can't stand that much action on most of the flops. Basically, I think you can only continue safely in that hand when you either spike a set or if the board is very low, every A,K,Q actually kills your play as, due to your setup play earlier, chances are really good even hands like A rag, KJ, KT, KQ etc stayed in there.
Therefore, I think AA or KK would been much more favourable for this kind of play...

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

Kurt your math is a little off here. He raised to $7, and got I think 3 callers - roughly $30 in the pot. I make it $36 and there is now a little under $70 in the pot.

I feel like I made some mistakes in this hand which is why I posted it - no need for the hostile tone with comments like "Congratulations getting yourself into a big pot, out of position, against an aggressive player, with very little idea what he has".

In retrospect, I think I probably got a little impatient and really wanted to execute this play I'd been setting up so JJ looks like a monster. Obviously I'd rather do this with AA or KK but he never (seriously never) has QQ+ in this spot so I don't think JJ is that far off. Of course, we are going to encounter overs a lot of the time, but on any low flop I think he stacks off very, very light because of how I set this play up. Should I proceed with the flop?

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

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Kurt your math is a little off here. He raised to $7, and got I think 3 callers - roughly $30 in the pot. I make it $36 and there is now a little under $70 in the pot.

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OK, a PSB is ~$42. If you made it $50 you could at least kill set odds. Plus, how many calls can he expect from the passive players still to act who already cold-called one raise... probably at least one, maybe 2. Add that money in the pot and I'm not far off.

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I made some mistakes in this hand which is why I posted it - no need for the hostile tone with comments like "Congratulations getting yourself into a big pot, out of position, against an aggressive player, with very little idea what he has".


[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize for the offensive tone. This place can be grating, and I get caught up sometimes. But the point I wanted to make with that comment stands - every decision you made preflop is a bad one, and set you up in an atrocious position.

So often the correct answer to a question is the answer not expected. Its usually "fold preflop", but in this case I think its "change seats to villain's left".

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

No worries my man.

Unfortunately, a seat change wasn't an option. I'm still not totally convinced that we are setting ourselves up for an "atrocious" flop situation. Certainly we don't want to see a A, K, or Q on the flop. But if overcards hit the flop we probably aren't going to lose much more. When low cards hit, however, JJ is just as strong as AA because he will never show up with a higher pair, and he is probably stacking off with any TP. There will also be times when an overcard + a J hits which is very, very good for us.

Anyway, I agree that JJ isn't great in this spot but I have a hard time believing that it is remarkably bad. I'll get to the flop...

~$100-$120 in the pot, I have ~$300 behind

Q87 w/ 2 hearts

Do we give up at this point or throw in a c-bet?

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

Wow, Kurt, I wrote my post before yours was entered, good to see our opinions are close to equal here.
OP: Did you have the J of hearts? I think just giving up here is too weak, plus a Q is the overcard I'd fear least here. I CB...

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

I do not recall whether or not I had the J of hearts...

My initial reaction was to c-bet. His range is so wide preflop that I am very likely ahead. How much?

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

You realize an overcard to your jacks will come over half the time, right?

Fire $90.

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

If you decide to CB you have to make a real bet, at least 2/3 or 3/4 of the pot. Everything less than that doesn't achieve anything and just blasts the pot and gives great odds for every kind of draw, like Ax of hearts, Kh9x or KhTx...

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

Indeed, but I can feel relatively comfortable c-betting when any 1 over hits, and the other half of the time we are good...

I bet a little less than you are suggesting, because I didn't feel great about betting the pot and getting 1/3 of my chips in. If he comes over the top all in, we are going to be getting 2-1 or better, and his possible holdings are 88, 77 (although I'd expect these hands to be in his $15 preflop betting range), 8Q8, Q7, any Q (other than AQ most likely given his preflop bet), any flush draw, any straight draw, any combo draw, any 8 (seriously)... so we are very tempted to make a questionable call due to the pot odds. If this guy is a rock obviously it's an easy fold to a push but this guy's range is so ridiculously wide that we will not be completely comfortable making this fold getting 2-1. I think we can get away with slightly smaller bets in live play than online because people pay less attention to the pot, and will almost always respect a bet of $50 or more.

Anyway, I bet like $50-$60 and he called. Now there is $100-$120 in the main pot, and $100-$120 in the side pot between him and I. This is where the hand gets really, really hard to play and I am kicking myself for letting the pot get so bloated OOP...

The turn is a K non heart. I sorta thought this was a decent card for me. If I check, I think this slows him down a little and I might be able to get to a cheap showdown. It also might not be a bad card to bluff at. If I push all in here, he is folding most of the time unless he has KQ or a big draw. Any 2 pair or set on the flop he is raising, and I really doubt he can call over $200 here with a Q. We are going to be ahead of any draw with one card to come so we can't really mind a call.

I decided that I was either going to check-fold to a bet (if he checks, reevaluate river) or go all in. Thoughts?

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

Yah you kinda shot yourself in the foot with you small initial raise, if people are raising to 15-20, than your reraises should be really big say 40-60. This also would make you decision on the flop much easier cause your getting pretty good odds to commit yourself with only 1 over card, especially a queen.
I do disagree with everone else here that said JJ isn't strong enough to do this play, if he had raised the correct ammount i think that JJ is plenty strong, I would prefer it over AK in most situations, I would personally have pull this same play with a pair as low as 99 depending on how randy i was feeling that day.
So you got the Q on the flop...I think the check would be my first option here, this doesn't commit you to the pot to much, i might even check blind, wait i retract checking blind because you have 2 villians to deal with, yep, you definetly when on a shooting spree towards you feet on this hand, JJ blows against 2 people. So yah, do the good old 3/4 pot raise and pray for the best, or check fold and save your money for a better preflop raise. .

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

warrant the 2nd player is all in... we only have 1 opponent

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

BTW, I'm just explaining my thought process during the hand... not trying to necessarily justify my play. Theoretically (if we are talking about playing the hand optimally), I think a bigger bet is better here but as a practical matter I don't think it would have made this hand any easier to play, and I really do believe that this is a big difference between live and online play (getting away with betting slightly less to avoid more difficult decisions/getting pot committed) as the pot size isn't staring you in the face (in fact, unless you are paying attention it is often very difficult to figure out as chips are scattered and most casinos do not allow dealers to spread the pot or help you figure out the pot size in any way). You are probably allowing yourself to play somewhat sub-optimally in certain situations but we all know that poker (especially live) involves a lot more than strictly theoretical thinking/decision making.

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

Also, prefop I'm not sure that raising to 60 accomplishes much? At this point, we are probably only getting called by hands that are beating us, and are allowing hands that we are beating to get off easy. You say 40-60, but I made it 36 which is not much different than the bottom-mid part of that range.

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

I'm really interested in thoughts on the turn

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

For me, the PF raise size is fine.
The problem is, when you not CB here, you giving away control over this hand. The good, aggressive player has 800 behind, that means he can put A LOT of pressure on you, and it seems he is def capable of doing it with a number of hands post flop. Furthermore, if you just check, he can decide if he likes to take a free card or not and I don't think you want to give free cards here.
Turn sucks big style and I completely agree with either c/f or bet AI. Honestly, I think it comes down to your feeling here (as you said: live game is different from online games) and personally I'd somehow prefer c/f. I don't feel commited here and don't think I'm in front against much of his range here...

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

Yeah, I really didn't feel great about an all in here either. I was very tempted to do it (as I thought he had to put me on QQ, KK, AA, maybe 88 or 77), but was reluctant to pull the trigger because he has a lot of money in front of him (more likely to make a big call to win a big pot) and has been making some weird calls and generally playing pretty loose (really wasn't positive that he'd fold a Q... and KQ is actually pretty likely).

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, prefop I'm not sure that raising to 60 accomplishes much? At this point, we are probably only getting called by hands that are beating us, and are allowing hands that we are beating to get off easy. You say 40-60, but I made it 36 which is not much different than the bottom-mid part of that range.

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You're trying to patch the problems with this hand after you've already made the biggest mistakes. Limping first-in with JJ was a huge error. This post should have read:

[ QUOTE ]
I've got a loose image because I just made a squeeze and showed a deuce. I get JJ in middle position and make it $15. I was hoping to get the player on my left to come along since he's tight preflop but will stack off with any top pair, but he folded and I got one call from late position. Player is unknown but short stacked. Flop comes:
Q87 with two hearts
Pot is $30 and villain only has $25 or so left in his stack. Which will get me more value, open-shoving or check-calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or how about this option... calling the $7 closing the action and playing the flop with an under-represented hand?

And then there's making a bigger raise $50-$60 and trying to take the hand down now. Seriously, an overcard comes 57% of the time and I'd rather take a small $30 haul that see a flop in a bad position.

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I'm really interested in thoughts on the turn

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I think your instincts are correct, the only reasonable options are c/f and shove. I want to be clear that I think this difficult decision was avoidable. I lean toward c/fing, but I'm a weak-tight nit, so take it for what its worth.

Re: Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me...
 

Yes, it was probably avoidable but we are in it now.

So I decided to check, and he checked behind. The river was a Q. Now what? I'm obviously going to check, but do we plan on calling any kind of bet? I've seen this guy bluff at the river in a spot like this before (flipping over 6 hi after his opponent mucked).

He bet like $70 and the action is back to me. There is now a little over $300 in the pot. It is worth noting that before his bet there is over $100 in the side pot between him and I. He is clearly capable of betting here with nothing to try and rake in the side pot. My read was that he either has a Q or a busted draw. If he has any other pair he checks behind for a showdown.

Do we call here getting over 4-1?