Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

It seems like the 10/20 on stars is always filled with regulars. Do you guys find it profitable to play a table with 2 regulars and 2 or 3 unknowns? I've generally been avoiding any table with 2 or more regulars, but I've found by sticking to this rule that I often won't have any tables to play. That's not the end of the world because I play other games and other sites, but the 10/20 is my main game and I'm just wondering if I'm being too wussy. I'm not really afraid of playing the regulars, it's just that my thinking is that I'm probably not better than them since if I was I'd probably be playing higher, so why not wait for worse opponents to pop up? But then I think if I'm always avoiding good players, I might make more money right now, but my game will never improve to the point where I can move up in limits and make alot more money... I know most of you guys are thinking "Just play pu**y!" but thanks for reading

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

if you are a regular, remember that they are probably equally afraid of you.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

I don't think there is a single 10-20 player that I avoid. Just cause they are regulars doesn't mean they are any good

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

I rarely leave a table at 10/20. only if its all regulars. Even then, on most of the regulars I have notes that indicate they are not expert. Other regs likely have similar notes on me so whatever.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

i disagree with most of the responses, although they may equally be afraid of you any edge is generally so small that rake is the winner. At stars you have plenty of options and table selection is huge. Having said that I play mostly at AP where we always have 4 regulars at any given table.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there is a single 10-20 player that I avoid. Just cause they are regulars doesn't mean they are any good

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the attitude that the stars regulars have that make that game so beatable.

juice i have no idea who you are and i'm 99% certain you're not one of the guys i'm talking about - you just made a very quotable statement.

Table selection is fine if you're trying to win. If there is a better seat, you are making a mistake by not taking it. If the games that are going are all terrible, you can play a little higher or a little lower. But as far as I can tell in the time i've been playing again - you can always find a few good games. If not, hell, it's a great time to start learning NL (when there are no good limit games).

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
But then I think if I'm always avoiding good players, I might make more money right now, but my game will never improve to the point where I can move up in limits and make alot more money...

[/ QUOTE ]

In general I avoid good players and I play in juicy games only. I agree with you that it will be hard for me to improve my peronal game if I never play against better players, but thats when you have to ask yourself what youre trying to accomplish. I just want the money. Im not trying to be the best limit player in the world. So what do you want? The money? Or the glory?

I'd also would like to point out that if you play on juicy tables only you can still move up pretty high. The drawback is, you will be moving up at a slower rate since you wont be getting a relatively high volume of hands, but you will have a lot more fun in the process since you will always be playing with a strong edge. Theres juicy tables all the way up to the highest limits. However the problem is, as you move up higher and higher, the games where you have a strong edge are less frequent but they still happen, so now it becomes a patience game. As youre looking for a weak game at such and such level you simply grind it out at some lower level where the weak games are relatively frequent.

This is how I approach poker and I have been very happy with my results. I also still beleive you can improve your game despite playing mostly weaker players. What you have to do is study the game constantly when your away from the tables, like reading this site, or running various scenarios/hypotheticals in your head of every situation you can imagine.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

I would spend more time on seat selection against regulars. Put three regulars to my right and I'll play all day - to my left and I'll leave.

YT

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

Hmm if u play stars u have probably played a ton vs me. I typically 6 table 10-20 6max. screen name is juuuiice. thought it would be obvious given that my 2+2 sn contains 8/13ths of my pokerstars screen name [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] . Also I am 100X better than anyone else playing 10-20 so I am guessing against even the toughest regular, I still have a distinct edge

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

So much for humility... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

juice what's your avatar i'm at work and have no DB in front of me. not looking to trash talk just curious.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

juuuiice is a product of the hoss_tbf camp of LHE so ya, he really is like 100X better than anyone else playing 10-20.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

lots of the responses in this thread are very unhelpful.

The trick is to look out for big time fish, not avoid regulars. The problem is that fish are hard to spot so often you just look for a bunch of unknowns and sit with them.

Lol at how little you'd win if you just sat around playing only regulars all day.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

yea juice what happened to you? one day you're a regular at the 50 and the next day i see you sitting at a 10/20 hu table...are you basically just sacrificing some $ in exchange for zero variance?

edit - actually just pm me...if you want to.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

Juice how did you get so good? honest questoin.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

So Juice, who do you believe are the next best regulars after you? Are there any regulars you think are pretty poor?

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

[ QUOTE ]
juuuiice is a product of the hoss_tbf camp of LHE so ya, he really is like 100X better than anyone else playing 10-20.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is he a product of the hoss camp? Taught by hoss or what?

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

said camp does not exist. I'm just his #1 fan

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just want the money. Im not trying to be the best limit player in the world. So what do you want? The money? Or the glory?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well definitely the money, but I do think there is alot to be said for moving up as quickly as possible to increase your $/hr.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]

The trick is to look out for big time fish, not avoid regulars. The problem is that fish are hard to spot so often you just look for a bunch of unknowns and sit with them.

[/ QUOTE ]
So would you sit at a table with 3 average regulars and 2 unknowns? Or 3 good regulars and 1 well known, huge fish?

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The trick is to look out for big time fish, not avoid regulars. The problem is that fish are hard to spot so often you just look for a bunch of unknowns and sit with them.

[/ QUOTE ]
So would you sit at a table with 3 average regulars and 2 unknowns? Or 3 good regulars and 1 well known, huge fish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well of course it depends on what you mean by average, good, and huge. But by most definitions I'd pick the second one. For one, you can leave the game when the fish does and if the regulars are very good then the game can only get better.

If you are exceptionally good like juuuicccce then it might not matter.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
So Juice, who do you believe are the next best regulars after you? Are there any regulars you think are pretty poor?

[/ QUOTE ]
hmm. decent regulars? I would have to say Nanonoko was probably one of the best 10-20 regulars. Sambowie was alright, although he hasnt been playing in a while, from what I can tell. some of the worst regulars? Boc4life, vinnybstgk, recently, reshef. and IMO the most hyped regular that gets the "meh, so so" award goes to Heisenb3rg

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

Heisenberg is terrible, heres an example:

POKERSTARS GAME #11915278301: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($10/$20) - 2007/09/07 - 00:01:20 (ET)
Table 'Ialmenus' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Heisenb3rg ($424 in chips)
Seat 2: JLlama ($881 in chips)
Seat 3: HUGEMC ($646 in chips)
Seat 5: millerlolife ($834 in chips)
millerlolife: posts small blind $5
Heisenb3rg: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to millerlolife [Td Ad]
JLlama: folds
HUGEMC: folds
millerlolife: raises $10 to $20
Heisenb3rg: raises $10 to $30
millerlolife: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
Heisenb3rg: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [4s 2c Qd]
millerlolife: bets $10
Heisenb3rg: calls $10
*** TURN *** [4s 2c Qd] [2s]
millerlolife: bets $20
Heisenb3rg: calls $20
*** RIVER *** [4s 2c Qd 2s] [As]
millerlolife: bets $20
Heisenb3rg: raises $20 to $40
millerlolife: calls $20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Heisenb3rg: shows [8d 9d] (a pair of Deuces)
millerlolife: shows [Td Ad] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
millerlolife collected $218 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $220 | Rake $2
Board [4s 2c Qd 2s As]
Seat 1: Heisenb3rg (big blind) showed [8d 9d] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 2: JLlama folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: HUGEMC (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: millerlolife (small blind) showed [Td Ad] and won ($218) with two pair, Aces and Deuces

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
Heisenberg is terrible, heres an example:

POKERSTARS GAME #11915278301: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($10/$20) - 2007/09/07 - 00:01:20 (ET)
Table 'Ialmenus' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Heisenb3rg ($424 in chips)
Seat 2: JLlama ($881 in chips)
Seat 3: HUGEMC ($646 in chips)
Seat 5: millerlolife ($834 in chips)
millerlolife: posts small blind $5
Heisenb3rg: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to millerlolife [Td Ad]
JLlama: folds
HUGEMC: folds
millerlolife: raises $10 to $20
Heisenb3rg: raises $10 to $30
millerlolife: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
Heisenb3rg: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [4s 2c Qd]
millerlolife: bets $10
Heisenb3rg: calls $10
*** TURN *** [4s 2c Qd] [2s]
millerlolife: bets $20
Heisenb3rg: calls $20
*** RIVER *** [4s 2c Qd 2s] [As]
millerlolife: bets $20
Heisenb3rg: raises $20 to $40
millerlolife: calls $20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Heisenb3rg: shows [8d 9d] (a pair of Deuces)
millerlolife: shows [Td Ad] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
millerlolife collected $218 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $220 | Rake $2
Board [4s 2c Qd 2s As]
Seat 1: Heisenb3rg (big blind) showed [8d 9d] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 2: JLlama folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: HUGEMC (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: millerlolife (small blind) showed [Td Ad] and won ($218) with two pair, Aces and Deuces

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, that looks like a vmacosta-on-tilt hand. heisenberg plays fine and he's added a helluva lot more to these forums then you guys have. pls take this garbage somewhere else.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

lol at judging a player by his spew hands while hes on tilt...
I go on reads and table feel a lot, so I have a lot of hands that make me look like a horrible spewmonkey, and others that make me look like a genious. When im on tilt, my intution is disttorted plus I make random anger plays, so I have some pretty disgusting hands to my name..

FWIW I think this isnt really super terrible.. Id like to see you handle that card with 77-KK.. Or if a low spade fell and you had A hi. If u always call, TY the other 99/100 times Im not trying a float play on tilt...

Want to know what was happening at another table while I was playing that hand miller? (also at the end of a 4 day long downswing)


[img=http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5300/worstsesssionpg2.th.jpg]

And juice, I have 300 hands of you in my DB and havent played a game with you since the first two weeks I moved up to 10/20.. so WTF?
I have a tendency to not get along with arrogant aholes, perhaps this is the reason for the playa hatin?

I respect your play, but your credibility is seriously lost by calling nanonoko one of the best @ 10/20..I think hes def a decent player but has some pretty exploitable patterns.. He's PMed me on numerous occasions asking for advice on why hes losing at 10/20 over a very large # of hands. Something I dont think one of the best players @ 10/20 would be doing..

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

i never said u sucked. i just said you were "meh". Also, I saw nanonoko doing a lot of right stuff for the wrong reasons, beacuse of that, he was somewhat hard to play against

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

I never said you said I sucked :P

Just surprised how you could make a judgement about my play in so little hands. FWIW I prolly I am "meh" [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].
Plus my irritation towards miller, and the "I am the greatest x1000" came out...

Last time I sat with miller he was berating me for no reason at all, about 15 minutes straight. I said like 2 sentences to the effect of..

"why are you obsessed with me? Plz stop talking"
"do you not have friends? stop talking to me"

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

lol

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

The guy plays 10/20 regular and think he is a great pokerplayer. Im sure he got a good reason to not make real money at higher limits [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

*

OP, u shouldnt listen to what the big egos says in this thread. Rake is huge at $10/20 and since its a pretty low limit u need a big edge to really make $. U will not make any substantial moey out of 90% of the regulars.

I dont sit down at a table with only regulars and 1 fish. Its just to tricky to play if u multitable and ur edge is smaller then u think (only 1/5 of the fishmoney)

I think u need at least 2 unknowns at a table. Sit down, and leave if u see that one of the unknowns knows how to play (after 50 hands he is 32/19, AF 2.5... thats enough, dont play him... u dont need to play 353 hands and try to understand his weaknesses, just leave and avoid).

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

[ QUOTE ]
juice what's your avatar i'm at work and have no DB in front of me. not looking to trash talk just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]
Black dude looking menacing

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The guy plays 10/20 regular and think he is a great pokerplayer. Im sure he got a good reason to not make real money at higher limits [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

*

OP, u shouldnt listen to what the big egos says in this thread. Rake is huge at $10/20 and since its a pretty low limit u need a big edge to really make $. U will not make any substantial moey out of 90% of the regulars.

I dont sit down at a table with only regulars and 1 fish. Its just to tricky to play if u multitable and ur edge is smaller then u think (only 1/5 of the fishmoney)

I think u need at least 2 unknowns at a table. Sit down, and leave if u see that one of the unknowns knows how to play (after 50 hands he is 32/19, AF 2.5... thats enough, dont play him... u dont need to play 353 hands and try to understand his weaknesses, just leave and avoid).

[/ QUOTE ]

kiddo,
do you have a large PT db? I only have like 50k hands on this comp so its not much use, but could you look up numbers to support your argument. I would have thought the difference in ev between 5 decent regulars and 5 good regulars would be small in comparison to the difference between 2 unknowns (assume 38/13 on average?) and one huge fish (50/5?). The trick is figuring out the difference between an average and a good regular i guess.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

Jesus, I take a week off, and the old peen waving thread is replaced by a new, equally inane, peen waving thread.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus, I take a week off, and the old peen waving thread is replaced by a new, equally inane, peen waving thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

sethypooh, you have a large PT db, right? Can you weigh in on the discussion kiddo and I are having?

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jesus, I take a week off, and the old peen waving thread is replaced by a new, equally inane, peen waving thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

sethypooh, you have a large PT db, right? Can you weigh in on the discussion kiddo and I are having?

[/ QUOTE ]

My intuition is with you, (that the difference between "TAGFISH" and real fish is bigger than between Solid TAGS and and tagfish) but I don't think I can offer empirical support because A) my 10/20 DB isn't big enough, and B) I'm not sure I have a good enough handle on who is a solid reg and who is a bad reg for the analysis to not be hopelessly biased.

And I think this actually cuts in your favor as well - even if one COULD beat poor playing TAGS for more than out and out fish (which I suppose is possible in an aggro game), the time spent figuring out which are the the poor playing tags and which aren't would probably be better spent just playing against people who make the same obvious pre and postflop mistakes.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

yeah im pretty confident its not even close...
Agreeing with costa.

But it also depends on the style matchups..

a weak 17/14/1.5 is going to do much better vs a 60/0/0.8 than a 60/30/4.0 that plays moronically agressive postflop and doesnt hand read well.

A thinking player may be able to exploit both types of fish equally, since they should be able to adjust their style.... Punishing the maniac hard with their TPTK type hands, and not folding..

Your edge over the nit will be to run him over when he has nothing and steal his blinds liberally, then make laydowns when they play back at you..

The amount you can make off this is fairly limited, because he will rarely be making big mistakes..
He's just forgoing a number of small +EV opportunities that you are not.

Big fish on the other hand are going to putting in whole BB drawing dead, semi frequently or NEVER charge you for value betting them...
The same will apply if a NIT is playing these players, since vs LP's, a postflop style similar to a nits is probabily correct.

BAD TAGs still semi-bluff so, your forced to pay off or fold the best hand at times.. LPs rarely will.

Because of the structure of this game, you simply cannot make a huge winrate vs playing these types of players.

These numerous small edges can end up being significant, but once you subtract the 10/20 rake, its probabily neglible..

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would spend more time on seat selection against regulars. Put three regulars to my right and I'll play all day - to my left and I'll leave.

YT

[/ QUOTE ]

I use the opposite seat selection. I'd rather be 3bet by a known than an unknown. I'd rather have a calling station act in front of me than behind me. I'd rather button raise vs. a guy who folds 65% of his BBs instead of calling with 70%.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

Guys, thanks for the helpful responses. I kind of knew this thread would get like this so I almost didn't ask, but the thought that I might be overly nitty about table selection was something that would really bother me whenever I decided not to sit at a certain table. I wanted to know how other good players handle this situation. Thanks again.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

I dont think we disagree on this. I agree that it probably is better, or at least as good, to play against 1 big fish and 5 decent regulars, rather then 3 decent regulars and 2 38/13.

But u dont need to look in PT, because u shouldnt sit at any of these tables. (or if u do, u shouldnt hope to make a lot, even if u are good).

I think what Im trying to say is this: When u want to pick a table wehere u need to have a pretty high BB/100 (because limit isnt that high) treat all regulars as +-0 and try to find a table with at least 2 players that make obvious misstakes. Its not enough with 1 bad player.

You are looking for guys that will call 1BB on turn with 4 outs, not guys that bluffcheckraise turn with 9 outs when it should be obvious that u are going to call.

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20
 

God I hope that regulars don't toss 65% of their BBs versus a button raise. I guess I'm used to regular meaning "good" and sitting to their right meaning "getting 3-bet all day long". I definitely would rather have a calling station on my right than my left.

YT

Re: Question about table selection (more specifically pokerstars 10/20 6m)
 

[ QUOTE ]


I think what Im trying to say is this: When u want to pick a table wehere u need to have a pretty high BB/100 (because limit isnt that high) treat all regulars as +-0 and try to find a table with at least 2 players that make obvious misstakes. Its not enough with 1 bad player.

You are looking for guys that will call 1BB on turn with 4 outs, not guys that bluffcheckraise turn with 9 outs when it should be obvious that u are going to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is easier said than done. It is fairly hard to judge a players ability based on one or two erronous plays that you notice when table selecting... who is to say that what he is doing is wrong ? Do you know what the correct 'strategy' is for each individual decision you/opponent faces for each hand played? no. So what this "bad player" is doing could be distant from your strategy, who is to say your strategy isnt also flawed? Also, quick rash judgements like "ooh im going to sit at his table he just called the turn with 4 outs " can cost you a lot of money. This attitude expemplifies a great lack of judgement on your part.