Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

I know a late-twenties missionary who is working in Turkey. While he was swimming at the beach, he lost his wedding ring. Later, after praying over Psalms 33:7 ("He gathereth the waters of the sea together as a heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses."), this spiritually minded young man recovered his symbolic jewelry from a tidal pool.

He believes this was a Divine miracle of direct answered prayer.

At first blush you probably dismiss my friend as a clinical egomaniac who should not be held morally accountable for his beliefs. But say we ignore this contention. Is he is immoral to believe in a God that intervenes for the recovery of lost trinkets while innocent children are starving to death?

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is he is immoral to believe in a God that intervenes for the recovery of lost trinkets while innocent children are starving to death?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not only is it immoral but it is sheer madness, indication that something is not right up there! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

I don't think beliefs can be immoral but maybe he believes in an immoral god.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think beliefs can be immoral but maybe he believes in an immoral god.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be immoral to worship an immoral god.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think beliefs can be immoral but maybe he believes in an immoral god.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be immoral to worship an immoral god.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems that the only requirement be that you are a believer that your god full of love, exists, whether he really is so or not, whether what you see in the world fits a god of love or not!

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think beliefs can be immoral but maybe he believes in an immoral god.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be immoral to worship an immoral god.

[/ QUOTE ]
its not immoral if you believe you worship a moral god but are mistaken and in fact worship an immoral god.

chez

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

its not immoral if you believe you worship a moral god but are mistaken and in fact worship an immoral god.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I was gonna edit my post to say that, but I knew that you'd be sharp enough to correct me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

I think it is immoral that 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, when from all my observations of people this clearly isn't true.

And note that I'm not judging those who care more about their wedding ring, I'm being judgemental towards so many people having obvious double standards.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

If I ever have kids of my own, I'm reasonably sure I'll treat them better than I treat the starving children in Africa. E.g. by granting requests that are somewhat trivial compared to starving to death.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I ever have kids of my own, I'm reasonably sure I'll treat them better than I treat the starving children in Africa. E.g. by granting requests that are somewhat trivial compared to starving to death.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a reply to tame_deuces or to me? I don't see how this is an appropriate analogy to my friend's belief, since there is a qualitative difference in your relation to your children and your relation to African orphans.

A more reasonable human analogy of my friend's God would be something like a person who tortured one of his children in the basement while spoiling another one of his children. My question is whether my friend is immoral to believe that such a Being is the Source of all truth and beauty.

Obviously my friend is...um...not smart (and terrifyingly credulous.) But is the profound depravity implied by his belief sufficient to make holding that belief immoral, in your opinion?

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

The qualitative difference is in relationship. If you believe in a "relationship God" as opposed to a "random blessing God," it might not seem so unnatural to expect good things to happen when you jump through the correct hoops (whatever they may be -- maybe praying for xyz) that result in relationship with God.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think it is immoral that 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, when from all my observations of people this clearly isn't true.

And note that I'm not judging those who care more about their wedding ring, I'm being judgemental towards so many people having obvious double standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some serious responses to this, because what tame_deuces suggests is undeniably right.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think it is immoral that 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, when from all my observations of people this clearly isn't true.

And note that I'm not judging those who care more about their wedding ring, I'm being judgemental towards so many people having obvious double standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put another way: if such a god is itself immoral, and those who believe in it are immoral, then OP is himself immoral, since obviously he is electing to fulfill all sorts of other trivial wishes instead of fixing the plight of those starving African children despite clearly seeing the moral problems with such an approach. Such a stringent definition of morality seems uninteresting to me because nobody satisfies it and thus it loses meaning.

EDIT:

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see some serious responses to this, because what tame_deuces suggests is undeniably right.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is undeniably right. The internet (and this community in particular) just has a massive hard-on for attacking religion.

EDIT 2:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how this is an appropriate analogy to my friend's belief, since there is a qualitative difference in your relation to your children and your relation to African orphans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should this distinction carry any moral weight? That's far from clear. If it should, what is the compelling argument that we should be treated as God's children, as opposed to just viewing that as a metaphor?

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
The qualitative difference is in relationship. If you believe in a "relationship God" as opposed to a "random blessing God," it might not seem so unnatural to expect good things to happen when you jump through the correct hoops (whatever they may be -- maybe praying for xyz) that result in relationship with God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess there are enough hidden premises in the idea of prayer that one can't easily extract what identity of God is implied.

I probably should have found a different way of posing my basic question...which was whether people think holding a belief can be immoral, if the belief is sufficiently depraved.

tame deuces's corollary comment is more interesting anyway.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

I suppose it is possible if you believe God wasn't omnipotent and for some reason could only have limited intervention. But I'm not sure if you'd consider that to be God.

Or maybe Satan is answering the prayers. No, seriously. False miracles and temptations I suppose can be consistent with this.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
The internet (and this community in particular) just has a massive hard-on for attacking religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never woulda guessed that!!!

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think it is immoral that 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, when from all my observations of people this clearly isn't true.

And note that I'm not judging those who care more about their wedding ring, I'm being judgemental towards so many people having obvious double standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some serious responses to this, because what tame_deuces suggests is undeniably right.

[/ QUOTE ]
I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, hence they care more about world hunger than wedding rings. Also many people give far more towards good causes over their lifetime then they spend on wedding rings.

and most people don't pretend they would give up all their wealth to help the starving. Most people who claim to care about the starving etc will admit they only care enough to give up a proportion of what they have. So no double standard. (also a good thing imo as it would be a disaster otherwise)

chez

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The internet (and this community in particular) just has a massive hard-on for attacking religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never woulda guessed that!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure exactly what this is supposed to be a crack at, i.e. what demographic or stereotype you are targeting. Is it that those who are able to turn on a computer are more likely to be critical of religion?

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, hence they care more about world hunger than wedding rings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your counterargument is itself a massive exaggeration. He didn't say that people didn't want to end world hunger, but trading in a wedding ring could probably feed ten children or so for a year. I doubt most people are in a rush to do so.

I'd agree (as I suggested in my earlier post) that a morality based on all the good you're not doing doesn't really seem useful or tenable. But if we agree that that is the case, then I think arguing about the morals of some god is going to be awfully confusing if you're holding that god to a different moral standard than humans. Would it be human immoral to worship something that doesn't live up to god morality? It might still be way better than any human morality. And so on.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think it is immoral that 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, when from all my observations of people this clearly isn't true.

And note that I'm not judging those who care more about their wedding ring, I'm being judgemental towards so many people having obvious double standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some serious responses to this, because what tame_deuces suggests is undeniably right.

[/ QUOTE ]
I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, hence they care more about world hunger than wedding rings. Also many people give far more towards good causes over their lifetime then they spend on wedding rings.

and most people don't pretend they would give up all their wealth to help the starving. Most people who claim to care about the starving etc will admit they only care enough to give up a proportion of what they have. So no double standard. (also a good thing imo as it would be a disaster otherwise)

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because they'd give up their wedding ring to "end world hunger" when its put to them in those stark terms doesn't mean that their actions indicate far different priorities. Many people would say a lot of things, and many people would act in a certain way when put under the spotlight, but its their actions when no one is looking that reveal true priorities, IMO.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure exactly what this is supposed to be a crack at, i.e. what demographic or stereotype you are targeting. Is it that those who are able to turn on a computer are more likely to be critical of religion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mostly it's an observation; I encounter more vocally militant atheists online than I do in life, and I associate primarily with scientists. It was a bit of a crack at OP, in this context, mostly because it seems like an attempt to vilify practitioners of religion for failing to live up to an artificially inflated moral standard that he almost certainly doesn't approach either. What I perceive as the need to establish disbelief as not just truthful (which I agree with) but morally superior (which as a blanket statement I don't agree with) strikes me as misguided and distasteful.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think it is immoral that 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, when from all my observations of people this clearly isn't true.

And note that I'm not judging those who care more about their wedding ring, I'm being judgemental towards so many people having obvious double standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some serious responses to this, because what tame_deuces suggests is undeniably right.

[/ QUOTE ]
I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, hence they care more about world hunger than wedding rings. Also many people give far more towards good causes over their lifetime then they spend on wedding rings.

and most people don't pretend they would give up all their wealth to help the starving. Most people who claim to care about the starving etc will admit they only care enough to give up a proportion of what they have. So no double standard. (also a good thing imo as it would be a disaster otherwise)

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because they'd give up their wedding ring to "end world hunger" when its put to them in those stark terms doesn't mean that their actions indicate far different priorities. Many people would say a lot of things, and many people would act in a certain way when put under the spotlight, but its their actions when no one is looking that reveal true priorities, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, I think many who could exchange a wedding ring to end world hunger would do so even if no-one ever found out they did it.

chez

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, hence they care more about world hunger than wedding rings.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Your counterargument is itself a massive exaggeration. He didn't say that people didn't want to end world hunger, but trading in a wedding ring could probably feed ten children or so for a year. I doubt most people are in a rush to do so.


[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, most people only care enough to give up a some of what they don't need to survive, but most people will admit that so there's no double standard.

Of course my coumnter-claim is an exaggeration but that's how you deal with exaggerated claims. If we were always willing to give up a non-essential to help 10 starving people then that's the same as giving up everything non-essential - most people wouldn't ever claim they cared enough to do that.

chez

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

Sure, most people only care enough to give up a some of what they don't need to survive, but most people will admit that so there's no double standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then what is the OP about? He's arguing that believing in something that could alleviate some amount of hunger but chooses not to is immoral, right? tame_deuces point was that this is true of essentially everybody, in some sense, and so it's a silly thing to bring up as a denouncement of religion. I think the point was phrased a little poorly, but the content is solid.

EDIT: Also, I fail to see the exaggeration. You don't think that 99% of people care more about their worldly goods than abstract starving children? I'd say he's lowballing it if anything.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd agree (as I suggested in my earlier post) that a morality based on all the good you're not doing doesn't really seem useful or tenable. But if we agree that that is the case, then I think arguing about the morals of some god is going to be awfully confusing if you're holding that god to a different moral standard than humans. Would it be human immoral to worship something that doesn't live up to god morality? It might still be way better than any human morality. And so on.


[/ QUOTE ]
The only thing we have are moral judgements and being human the judgments we make are human ones. Its meaningless to talk about gods morality this way - whatever we learn about god we are still left with human judgement about it. If god disagrees then so be it, I can only judge it better or worse using my human facilities.

chez

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think it is immoral that 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, when from all my observations of people this clearly isn't true.

And note that I'm not judging those who care more about their wedding ring, I'm being judgemental towards so many people having obvious double standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some serious responses to this, because what tame_deuces suggests is undeniably right.

[/ QUOTE ]
I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, hence they care more about world hunger than wedding rings. Also many people give far more towards good causes over their lifetime then they spend on wedding rings.

and most people don't pretend they would give up all their wealth to help the starving. Most people who claim to care about the starving etc will admit they only care enough to give up a proportion of what they have. So no double standard. (also a good thing imo as it would be a disaster otherwise)

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because they'd give up their wedding ring to "end world hunger" when its put to them in those stark terms doesn't mean that their actions indicate far different priorities. Many people would say a lot of things, and many people would act in a certain way when put under the spotlight, but its their actions when no one is looking that reveal true priorities, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, I think many who could exchange a wedding ring to end world hunger would do so even if no-one ever found out they did it.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]


How about just end hunger for 5 guys, which is all that was ever claimed? The "end world hunger" thing is a bit of goalpost-moving.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think it is immoral that 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, when from all my observations of people this clearly isn't true.

And note that I'm not judging those who care more about their wedding ring, I'm being judgemental towards so many people having obvious double standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some serious responses to this, because what tame_deuces suggests is undeniably right.

[/ QUOTE ]
I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, hence they care more about world hunger than wedding rings. Also many people give far more towards good causes over their lifetime then they spend on wedding rings.

and most people don't pretend they would give up all their wealth to help the starving. Most people who claim to care about the starving etc will admit they only care enough to give up a proportion of what they have. So no double standard. (also a good thing imo as it would be a disaster otherwise)

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because they'd give up their wedding ring to "end world hunger" when its put to them in those stark terms doesn't mean that their actions indicate far different priorities. Many people would say a lot of things, and many people would act in a certain way when put under the spotlight, but its their actions when no one is looking that reveal true priorities, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, I think many who could exchange a wedding ring to end world hunger would do so even if no-one ever found out they did it.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]


How about just end hunger for 5 guys, which is all that was ever claimed? The "end world hunger" thing is a bit of goalpost-moving.

[/ QUOTE ]
I responded to that - always giving up a non-essential to help a few guys is the same as giving up all non-essentials. Few would claim they care enough to give up that much so there's no double standard.

Many claim to care enough to give up some of their non-essentials and that's exactly what they do.

chez

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

<font color="blue"> I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, </font>

Ah, but he said nothing about world hunger. He said Quote: <font color="blue"> 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, </font>

The sheer fact that when someone loses a wedding ring it will occupy their mind at least for that day considerably more than a starving child is proof enough of this statement.


Again, we're not talking about "world hunger" or giving up "all one's wealth". Is your car more important than a starving child? How about the next concert you attend? Why not forego these things and stop a child from starving today?

Answer: Right now, at least right for this very moment these material things are worth more to you than saving a starving child. Otherwise, you'd be making the arrangements.

I am NOT questioning your charity! I don't even know what you give to charitable causes. What I'm saying is that few of us give "til it hurts". We don't need to go broke doing so, but most of us could easily give more AND think more about charitable causes if we wanted to.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think it is immoral that 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, when from all my observations of people this clearly isn't true.

And note that I'm not judging those who care more about their wedding ring, I'm being judgemental towards so many people having obvious double standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see some serious responses to this, because what tame_deuces suggests is undeniably right.

[/ QUOTE ]
I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, hence they care more about world hunger than wedding rings. Also many people give far more towards good causes over their lifetime then they spend on wedding rings.

and most people don't pretend they would give up all their wealth to help the starving. Most people who claim to care about the starving etc will admit they only care enough to give up a proportion of what they have. So no double standard. (also a good thing imo as it would be a disaster otherwise)

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because they'd give up their wedding ring to "end world hunger" when its put to them in those stark terms doesn't mean that their actions indicate far different priorities. Many people would say a lot of things, and many people would act in a certain way when put under the spotlight, but its their actions when no one is looking that reveal true priorities, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, I think many who could exchange a wedding ring to end world hunger would do so even if no-one ever found out they did it.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, forget world hunger! I think tame_deuces was talking about starving children. A wedding ring doesn't need to solve world hunger, but it would certainly take care of a starving child.

Re: Is it immoral to believe in anecdotal \"answered prayer?\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> I deny its right, at least its a massive exaggeration. Most people would swap something like a wedding ring for an end to world hunger, </font>

Ah, but he said nothing about world hunger. He said Quote: <font color="blue"> 99% of all people pretend that starving children means more to them than a lost wedding ring, </font>

The sheer fact that when someone loses a wedding ring it will occupy their mind at least for that day considerably more than a starving child is proof enough of this statement.


Again, we're not talking about "world hunger" or giving up "all one's wealth". Is your car more important than a starving child? How about the next concert you attend? Why not forego these things and stop a child from starving today?

Answer: Right now, at least right for this very moment these material things are worth more to you than saving a starving child. Otherwise, you'd be making the arrangements.

I am NOT questioning your charity! I don't even know what you give to charitable causes. What I'm saying is that few of us give "til it hurts". We don't need to go broke doing so, but most of us could easily give more AND think more about charitable causes if we wanted to.

[/ QUOTE ]
but few claim to care enough to give till it hurts. The problem here is confusing premises

1) many people claim to care enough to give up some non-essentials often with greater money value than the ring.

2) most of those people don't claim to care enough to donate till it hurts

these are consistant with not caring enough to give up the wedding ring.

the double standard is an illusion (not always but often)

BTW this is not about my charity but I'll brag to giving infinitely more to charity then I've spent on wedding rings.

chez