(razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (3.65 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___???
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets


Why on earth does he bet here? Because he thinks it's a pure steal? Should I raise to show I'm not FOS? What about 5th if I brick? If I check-call here I think I have to fold 5th if I brick, and I guess I should even if I raise here because it'll still only be like 2.5bb in the pot. But he could have total crap here and I'm drawing to a live, strong hand.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

who cares, just raise fourth for value.

ps: I feel like raising fourth lets you call fifth if you brick slightly harder than he does (say, a Q to his T).

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

But if I brick and he doesn't, I fold? (P.S. I always brick 5th. It's kind of a strategy of mine)

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

yes

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

"Why on earth does he bet here?" He bets because, he caught a queen and you caught a king. And at that point, he's drawing better than you. It has nothing to do with you being FOS, that's not why he's betting---thing is, he can see that he has you beat. And if you raise just to show him that you weren't FOS, what is that going to prove, and what do you do if he pops you back?

And yes, regardless of the great starter, you fold 5th if you brick again (providing he doesn't pair up or catch a king etc. etc.)

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

Well, in this particular case, he's drawing worse than me. In the best case scenario we're neck in neck. I hardly ever bother to bet in a case like this. If he drew like a T on 4th I might see a bet, and I'd probably bet in that case myself (a T makes him like a 3:2 favorite over my range although in this case he'd be barely ahead).

Betting here really only seems worth it if you think your opponent will fold more than 1/4 times. Otherwise it's just more variance for no reason.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

He bets fourth because Q < K so he thinks he's winning. You, of course, are clever enough to realize that neither of those face cards is likely to be part of a hand that gets shown down, so you're still a favorite. Get your money in there.

And fold fifth if he catches good and you don't.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (3.65 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___???
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets


Why on earth does he bet here? Because he thinks it's a pure steal? Should I raise to show I'm not FOS? What about 5th if I brick? If I check-call here I think I have to fold 5th if I brick, and I guess I should even if I raise here because it'll still only be like 2.5bb in the pot. But he could have total crap here and I'm drawing to a live, strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right, it's a silly bet. The SW prompted him to bet (act first) so he bet since a Q<K obv. Don't compound the issue by making a silly raise. Riasing for ego doesn't usually get you very far, and declaring to him "My complete on 3rd wasn't FOS" only gives away information for a very thin value bet, and no fold equity. His hand is defined (he can't have crap in the hole and call you with an 8 door card on 3rd can he??), and yours is a complete mystery except your probably have KJxx or better.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

And, here, why is Seat 6 raising 5th? He might raise me, but raise Seat 4? He has the worst hand! My theory about a lot of the Sunday night Razzers is, they have come from NLHE and somehow have the idea they can scare people off hands by betting. They defend bring-ins like some defend their BB. They don't get Razz.

Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (8.65 SB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (5.83 BB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
(he can't have crap in the hole and call you with an 8 door card on 3rd can he??)

[/ QUOTE ]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! (Sorry, SG, just pullin' yer high stakes leg.) Um --yes he can have KK in the hole and call on 3rd. (That's the worst one I remember) I think you might not have played $1/2 for a while.

Your advice is perfect, of course. But seriously, on a Sunday night when these guys show up you've never seen before, they can have pretty much anything. But only Sunday nights, for some reason.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(he can't have crap in the hole and call you with an 8 door card on 3rd can he??)

[/ QUOTE ]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! (Sorry, SG, just pullin' yer high stakes leg.) Um --yes he can have KK in the hole and call on 3rd. (That's the worst one I remember) I think you might not have played $1/2 for a while.

Your advice is perfect, of course. But seriously, on a Sunday night when these guys show up you've never seen before, they can have pretty much anything. But only Sunday nights, for some reason.

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol, yes my 1/2 expertise is a little rusty. Are you sure the maniacs were calling with KK in the hole, or raising? There are the bullying type who will go nuts with any door card 8 or better, but it's much rarer to find someone who will chase without at least 2 cards to an 8 or better. Obv if you do, take notes on the guy, play accordingly, and follow him around with a bucket.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lol, yes my 1/2 expertise is a little rusty. Are you sure the maniacs were calling with KK in the hole, or raising? There are the bullying type who will go nuts with any door card 8 or better, but it's much rarer to find someone who will chase without at least 2 cards to an 8 or better. Obv if you do, take notes on the guy, play accordingly, and follow him around with a bucket.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some will call, raise, reraise, chase - especially at first. Any small card. I had this guy whose VPIP (HEY! I finally got PT for Stud!) was 84.6%. They believe Razz is all bluff and show, I think. They win a lot when they get cards. They lose a lot when they gets cards, also. It's always tempting to play loose against them. I watched Rusty make a small fortune off them last night.

As for following them around - didja ever have the worst luck of all time? I did, today and two players followed me to another table. Not good for the ego, but I'm sure they will find me again when I am NOT sitting in the Antarctic seat. Then I'll make some money.




If I don't go broke first........

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 4: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (3.65 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___???
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets


Why on earth does he bet here? Because he thinks it's a pure steal? Should I raise to show I'm not FOS? What about 5th if I brick? If I check-call here I think I have to fold 5th if I brick, and I guess I should even if I raise here because it'll still only be like 2.5bb in the pot. But he could have total crap here and I'm drawing to a live, strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right, it's a silly bet. The SW prompted him to bet (act first) so he bet since a Q<K obv. Don't compound the issue by making a silly raise. Riasing for ego doesn't usually get you very far, and declaring to him "My complete on 3rd wasn't FOS" only gives away information for a very thin value bet, and no fold equity. His hand is defined (he can't have crap in the hole and call you with an 8 door card on 3rd can he??), and yours is a complete mystery except your probably have KJxx or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, is TT posting on SG's account?

I absolutely raise/(cap?) here most importantly because you can then take a free card if you choose on a later street since you're in position w/ the K up and you're a 54% favorite against 3 to an 8.

Also, this is $1/$2, so the villain will probably not be paying attention to gain much information as a result of your raise. Finally, it can be great for metagame down there because people will be "zOMG he raised w/ a K?????!!?!?!?!"

At the higher levels you would probably be betraying your hand by 3-betting, however, calling indicates you're not on a steal anyway and the value of being able to take a free card probably becomes more important.

I think raising here has more upside than downside (esp. this low), and I will not pass up on small edges; this isn't a tournament.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Hmm, is TT posting on SG's account?

I absolutely raise/(cap?) here most importantly because you can then take a free card if you choose on a later street since you're in position w/ the K up and you're a 54% favorite against 3 to an 8.

Also, this is $1/$2, so the villain will probably not be paying attention to gain much information as a result of your raise. Finally, it can be great for metagame down there because people will be "zOMG he raised w/ a K?????!!?!?!?!"

At the higher levels you would probably be betraying your hand by 3-betting, however, calling indicates you're not on a steal anyway and the value of being able to take a free card probably becomes more important.

I think raising here has more upside than downside (esp. this low), and I will not pass up on small edges; this isn't a tournament.

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]
Ooooh low blow. I didn't say to fold on 4th did I? You have a small edge here, so without considering future sts then betting/raising is of course slightly +EV. We simply disagree on what's most valuable on future sts. I'm looking to keep the nature of my downcards a mystery rather than turning them face up. Maybe I can induce a bet on 5th that I can raise with a big draw.

You're looking for a free card later. What are you going to catch on 5th where you're going to get a free card when you need it?

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're looking for a free card later. What are you going to catch on 5th where you're going to get a free card when you need it?

[/ QUOTE ]

32A for your hidden pair.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

Also we could take a free showdown if desired.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're looking for a free card later. What are you going to catch on 5th where you're going to get a free card when you need it?

[/ QUOTE ]

32A for your hidden pair.

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]

Think this thru a little more. An A is not hidden, so only a 2 or 3 fits your criteria. That's only 6 outs to get into this spot. Plus, if you raised with a K up on 4th, what do you think villain will most likely put you on in the hole? Now do you think you get a free card when you catch a 2 or 3 unless he bricks mercilessly on 5th?

I'm all for thin value bets in cash games, but there is a lot of value in information.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

dude, it's 1/2, they don't notice or care.

if we're talking 5/10+, I can see the argument, but they're never doing anything except betting their board vs. yours.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

I find this characterization of 1/2 and below ridiculous. There are lots of people playing 1/2 who have put in 10s of thousands of hands, read this board, and are not retarded.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find this characterization of 1/2 and below ridiculous. There are lots of people playing 1/2 who have put in 10s of thousands of hands, read this board, and are not retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's been a while since I've played 1/2 but IIRC the level of play is dramatically better than 25c/50c. You won't fnid the best players there obv, but quite a few decent ones. As for the assertion that the typical players at 5/10+ are significantly better, I have one word for you:

Peony

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that everyone who plays $1/2 is a poor player. There are, however, a lot more poor players than good players at that level. You're a lot better off assuming that an unknown player plays poorly than you are assuming that he plays well.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that everyone who plays $1/2 is a poor player. There are, however, a lot more poor players than good players at that level. You're a lot better off assuming that an unknown player plays poorly than you are assuming that he plays well.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't argue with that. All I'm arguing with is the assertion that the quality of play improves appreciably at 5/10 and up. Unless it's a table with Adanthar, chips, spoon, biggrapes, ifishharder, and me, it's not going to be a tough table.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that everyone who plays $1/2 is a poor player. There are, however, a lot more poor players than good players at that level. You're a lot better off assuming that an unknown player plays poorly than you are assuming that he plays well.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't argue with that. All I'm arguing with is the assertion that the quality of play improves appreciably at 5/10 and up. Unless it's a table with Adanthar, chips, spoon, biggrapes, ifishharder, and me, it's not going to be a tough table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then we will expect every one of you to show up and play the Razztoberfest so we can all benefit from the experience.

I agree with Andy and share Randy's feeling we were insulted, even as I am sure it wasn't meant as a personal comment. So - I'm over it.

OK, I'm not so great when I have no luck. But I watch poker on the net - which some think is odd, but I find it instructive and I've seen at least two of the players SG mentioned donk off a load of chips on Razz hands I could see should've been folded. So, we are all vulnerable to donkpokeritis.

I agree with Andy that it is the quantity of bad players, the ratio to good players, that changes as you get higher. But I also know that some of these stratospheric players (like 15/30) come bottom-feeding at 1/2, so I'm not assuming anything until I see them play.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unless it's a table with Adanthar, chips, spoon, biggrapes, ifishharder, and me, it's not going to be a tough table.

[/ QUOTE ]

hell, I don't even pretend to be that good at razz, I just get poker.

the fact that I'm likely a winning player at anything below 50/100 is ridiculously funny.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then we will expect every one of you to show up and play the Razztoberfest so we can all benefit from the experience.

I agree with Andy and share Randy's feeling we were insulted, even as I am sure it wasn't meant as a personal comment. So - I'm over it.

OK, I'm not so great when I have no luck. But I watch poker on the net - which some think is odd, but I find it instructive and I've seen at least two of the players SG mentioned donk off a load of chips on Razz hands I could see should've been folded. So, we are all vulnerable to donkpokeritis.

I agree with Andy that it is the quantity of bad players, the ratio to good players, that changes as you get higher. But I also know that some of these stratospheric players (like 15/30) come bottom-feeding at 1/2, so I'm not assuming anything until I see them play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the invite, Prax, but I typically am busy sat. afternoons so I can't make any promises. I like the idea of the tourney tho, and anything that helps get some excitement going about the game of razz. We have to go a long way to overcome the Norman Chad insultfest of 2004.

About the quality of players, you make a good point that no one is immune to bad play. The best among us make rash decisions, go on tilt, showboat, etc. and will donk off chips from time to time. The more general issue is what makes a player good? There are many aspects to this overall skill such as hand reading, math fundamentals, deception, adapting to opponents, etc. Since there are very few "perfect" players, some players weaknesses will play into others' strength so player 1 may be a donk vs. player 2, but a very good player otherwise. Here is a copy of a post I made on the subject of dealing with donkeys from "another" poker site:

[ QUOTE ]
Donkeys actually have an advantage over other marginal players. By "donkeys" I assume you're talking about either horrible calling stations, or complete maniacs. These types of players will only make one type of mistake, either calling too often or betting too often, while other marginal players are always trying to figure out the right play but not always making it. Therefore they are open to all kinds of mistakes: bad calls, bad bets, and bad folds.

Part of the problem is also due to playing styles. Like a complex game of Roshambo, in poker some styles will beat others when skill levels are roughly even, while losing to a third kind. A lot of donkeys get by on the fact that they make other players adjust to their style, and only good players are up to the task. Observe the donkeys, get a read on their style and habits if not their cards, and then you can exploit them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

Basically all I was saying is that sometimes I get the feeling that the advice I get on hands isn't realistic, because it's colored by higher stakes players' perceptions that my opponents are necessarily awful and will not be paying attention to what I do, thinking about what I might have, considering strategies, etc.

I don't mean to single Adanthar out here, it's just that this thread contains two big examples from him:

[ QUOTE ]

who cares, just raise fourth for value.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

dude, it's 1/2, they don't notice or care.


[/ QUOTE ]

I reread SOP yesterday and actually Sklansky recommends that I bet here and/or raise this guy, because my 3 card hand is definitely better than his, and I will be in position for the whole hand unless he pairs. That's something I hadn't considered too closely until recently.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

(To be clear, I do not feel insulted by Adanthar's comment. Clearly I care what players do and I pay attention)

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

you're a 2+2'er = you generally do notice. that's implied.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you're a 2+2'er = you generally do notice. that's implied.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right - that wasn't my problem with the statement.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
About the quality of players, you make a good point that no one is immune to bad play. The best among us make rash decisions, go on tilt, showboat, etc. and will donk off chips from time to time. The more general issue is what makes a player good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dan Harrington's squeeze play, 2004 WSOP main event final table. He put about half of his stack on the line with 6-2 offsuit. There is a very fine line between genius and donkey.

In that case, Dan had to trust in his read, that Arieh and Raymer couldn't call his bet. (And there were others yet to act behind Dan -- David Williams mucked his A-Q to Dan's bet.) I'm sure that any good poker player has many moments like this where you come off looking like a genius or an idiot based on whether your read was accurate. And unless you write a book like Dan did, nobody's ever going to see your genius moves, but they'll sure remember the times you got caught red-handed making a move that turned out wrong.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

serious answer: your opponents are terrible. the opponents at 30/60 are also largely terrible. up until you get to big grapes at 100/200 and the half dozen people playing midstakes I respect, nobody is any good at razz, and if you think villains pay attention, you're either not very good (that's okay, because like I said, nobody including myself is, and if you're the best bad player out of a thousand terrible ones you'll still make lots of money) or grossly overestimating their ability.

also, if you've put in tens of thousands of hands at 1/2 and are at least breaking even, the rake is killing you. move up.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

I've put in about 2k hands at 1/2, 5k at .5/1 and about 16k at .25/.5

I've been moving up as bankroll permits. Right now I just take occaisonal shots at 1/2 when conditions are favorable. So far, so good.

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, if you've put in tens of thousands of hands at 1/2 and are at least breaking even, the rake is killing you. move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about Rusty, but if I ever put in "tens of thousands" of hands at 1/2 without making enough bankroll to move up, I'll kill myself.

I also wasn't targeting you, BTW. People who "get it" are just better. You are better because of that. I believe I get Razz in a way I never got hold 'em. But you have the advantage of much greater experience. You can read all the books, I try to, but for me it doesn't stick until I screw it up.

Example of bad play because of inexperience:

I played on PStars 1/2 today and was doing OK. Then I was in a hand with two other players. I was in the middle. First guy caught good, I caught good, third guy caught a Q. First guy bets, (I have like 3A46) and I DIDN'T RAISE. Of course, the Queen called, me and the other good guy both bricked the next two streets and the Queen won when we folded.

Stupid. You raise to get the high card out because he has to face two bets. This is a mistake you wouldn't make in a million years now. And neither would SG. But you might have made at 1/2 few times. I have played this correctly before - but - I am coming off a real bad losing streak. So, I just called - getting too cowardly to risk my money. That won't happen again, I hope.

Higher stakes, for the most part, are earned. Fish at higher stakes are there because they have money and didn't earn the Seat, they bought it. (Not saying they didn't earn the money.)

I think you are very good, Adanthar, because you earned it. You get it. You have the experience, the "poker maturity" that keeps you from serious tilt. The good sense to know we don't win that often because we are so smart, but because we get a little luck and our opponent is not so good.

A long time ago in a universe far, far....well, anyway - I used to be a cop. I was considered to be pretty good at it - had a great arrest record all that. But I knew my "success" was because I had good relations with support staff who'd go to great lengths to find info for me. Citizens trusted me with information. And mostly, because bad guys are generally as dumb as a box o' rocks.

I wasn't tougher or any of that TV crap. I just "got" policework.

Ya want to know why rookies are not as good as experienced cops? They don't know what to kiss off; they don't know when to fold.

prax<---garrously rambling to avoid yardwork

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

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serious answer: your opponents are terrible. the opponents at 30/60 are also largely terrible. up until you get to big grapes at 100/200 and the half dozen people playing midstakes I respect, nobody is any good at razz, and if you think villains pay attention, you're either not very good (that's okay, because like I said, nobody including myself is, and if you're the best bad player out of a thousand terrible ones you'll still make lots of money) or grossly overestimating their ability.

also, if you've put in tens of thousands of hands at 1/2 and are at least breaking even, the rake is killing you. move up.

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One thing I can say about terrible opponents is that at higher stakes they are often paying attention. They may still do a lot of dumb things, but if they notice that if you always fold 5th with a mediocre board and they are representing a wheel draw, then they will always bet even if they paired up. Or say you try to steal a lot, they will call you down very lightly if your raised from a steal position. So the plays that are your bread and butter in lower stakes get narrowed down in higher stakes b/c the opponents are more 'savvy' even when they are still donks.

IIRC this effect starts at about 3/6, but may be at a different limit at this point. If 2/4 is still the upper end of the microstakes, then that's where you want to take your shots and try to establish a BR since accoring to jbrennen it's a soft spot in the rake structure (at least at FTP).

Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?
 

Hmmm, lots of action in this thread since I last checked.

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I don't think that anyone is suggesting that everyone who plays $1/2 is a poor player. There are, however, a lot more poor players than good players at that level. You're a lot better off assuming that an unknown player plays poorly than you are assuming that he plays well.

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This is the case, at least for myself. It's like in SSHE; you make more money by adjusting to the fact that your average competition is bad. Certainly there are good players at lower limits, but barring a read in the post "oh, seat 8 is good, I saw him..., etc." better advice is given by making adjustments to the "average" opponent at the level. A 1/2 opponent may be loose and not paying attention, an average 10/20 opponent might be a tight player, and the typical 50/100 player is probably very agressive. No offense is meant towards any lower level players on here by making an assumption that will benefit them in the long run. I usually put in my post what I would also do at a higher level, too; you can see that I did in this post. I may be more interested in a 30/60 hand than a 1/2 hand but I take each post as seriously as it wasn't too long ago that I was in the 2/4 and 3/6 HORSE games learning razz. (Taking shots is good if you think you can handle them...)

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I reread SOP yesterday and actually Sklansky recommends that I bet here and/or raise this guy, because my 3 card hand is definitely better than his, and I will be in position for the whole hand unless he pairs. That's something I hadn't considered too closely until recently.

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This is what I said and SG and I were disagreeing about; which, to get back to his point, yes, I guess you do only have 5 pair cards now, but those 5 cards cost you the entire pot unless he bricks even worse than that, so I feel that getting an extra 54% on a bet now for sure is worth passing up the chance to get, what, 60% on a bet that is admittedly twice as big later, although that's mitigated by the fact that he might not bet into you and you may not be the favorite on 5th.

You can be giving your hand away if you raise this, but only if you only do this w/ A23K. if he has xx8Q; since I like to add deception through aggressive play, I will do this w/ anything up to 567K (barring dead cards, etc.) so a thinking opponent cannot automatically put me on 3 wheel cards. Another benefit to this "extra" but reasonable aggression is that I can check-raise more often.

-ChipsAhoya