Inducing river bluffs
 

Sick of giving advice when i mostly suck at holdem so let me see what i can squeeze out of yall:

I used to think the whole inducing river bluffs thing was something weak/tight live nits used cuz they were afraid of getting bluff-raised.

However, recently I've changed my mind when it comes to playing certain fish and now I'm wondering what else i might be missing. Can people produce hands where they think this concept was applied correctly? Incorrectly?

To be clear, I am talking about situations where you are oop and have initiative on the river but choose to c/c.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

Not sure if this is correct/incorrect play but yesterday on $2/4:

Folded to laggy SB raises, I re-raise QQ from BB
flop: A93 check-bet-call
turn: A93-9 check-check
river A93-9-T bet-call

Don't know if this was correct, but I'd rather villain thought I had nothing than attempt a c/raise on the turn which (against this LAG) I'd probably have to call down.

If I bet that turn, I'd be raised by hands I'm behind and probably fold out hands I'm ahead. I chose to try to get him to bluff the river so I can gain an extra bet (or bet his better hand so I lose less when behind).

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure if this is correct/incorrect play but yesterday on $2/4:

Folded to laggy SB raises, I re-raise QQ from BB
flop: A93 check-bet-call
turn: A93-9 check-check
river A93-9-T bet-call

Don't know if this was correct, but I'd rather villain thought I had nothing than attempt a c/raise on the turn which (against this LAG) I'd probably have to call down.

If I bet that turn, I'd be raised by hands I'm behind and probably fold out hands I'm ahead. I chose to try to get him to bluff the river so I can gain an extra bet (or bet his better hand so I lose less when behind).

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kimchi,
shoot. i didn't make it clear in my OP. This is not what I meant. I mean you have initiative on river but choose to give it up to induce a bluff. lemme see if I can ammend my OP.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

vs. aggressive opponent who isn't likely to call down with a mediocre made hand, if you have been betting a hand like TP on F & T, and they have been calling on a draw heavy board, and no draw gets there on the river, then they probably won't pay off another bet on the river if their draw missed and you bet out, but they might bet the river as a bluff if you check.

Preflop (Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
villian open raises from C/O; hero in SB 3-bets

Flop (K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls (or Hero bets, villain raises, Hero 3-bets, villain calls)

Turn (3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls

River (4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

vs passive calling station who maybe is calling down with KT or A8, value bet this.

vs someone you think is on a draw and unlikely just calling with a made hand and not going to call another bet, checking to induce a bluff is good

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6SB, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3BB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 7BB
<font color="#ffffff">Button Shows Jc 8s</font>
<font color="#ffffff">Hero Shows 10d Kh</font>

i c/c because his range is pretty much straight draws and flush draws on the turn and my hand is not well defined.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

miles,
this is exactly the kind of hand I've been noticing works well. I take it that this button-limper is hi vpip, low af?

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

looking at pt... ~45/10/1 over 37 hands.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

[ QUOTE ]
vs. aggressive opponent who isn't likely to call down with a mediocre made hand, if you have been betting a hand like TP on F &amp; T, and they have been calling on a draw heavy board, and no draw gets there on the river, then they probably won't pay off another bet on the river if their draw missed and you bet out, but they might bet the river as a bluff if you check.

Preflop (Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
villian open raises from C/O; hero in SB 3-bets

Flop (K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls (or Hero bets, villain raises, Hero 3-bets, villain calls)

Turn (3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls

River (4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

vs passive calling station who maybe is calling down with KT or A8, value bet this.

vs someone you think is on a draw and unlikely just calling with a made hand and not going to call another bet, checking to induce a bluff is good

[/ QUOTE ]

gregorio,
thank you, this is not a spot I've ever considered...maybe others can help us decide if this is +ev. btw, i think you can raise the river if he bets.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

[ QUOTE ]
looking at pt... ~45/10/1 over 37 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah those are the right stats i think. any other situations you can think of?

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

Try to hand read at all stages of the hand.

If a loose player who isnt a spew monkey, but is agressive calls the flop and the turn, think about the action and the board.

Some common spots to induce bluffs on the river are when a third flush card comes on the turn, as well as there being a few one card gutshots..

If they will sometimes take the bait, think of the % of their range that is composed of draws vs possible made hands.

On boards such as the one above, I often check/call lowpairs + Ace high..
If my hand is good and the opponent is right I often check/raise.

There are two connecting boards which screams I CAN HAVE A DRAW
T9xxx with no QJ8 on it
or 89xxx with no JT7 on it.

I routinely call down KQ on the first board and QJ on the second.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

heisenberg,
"If a loose player who isnt a spew monkey, but is agressive "

are you talking about the 45/10/1 type miles mentioned? Can you think of other player types?

I'm starting to think more and more that the most important factors are high vpip, lowish AF, and presence of flush draw (or middling str8 draw, like you mentioned) that missed.

Obviously it's also an advantage if your hand is pretty weak and you can get some chk-behinds by better hands.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
vs. aggressive opponent who isn't likely to call down with a mediocre made hand, if you have been betting a hand like TP on F &amp; T, and they have been calling on a draw heavy board, and no draw gets there on the river, then they probably won't pay off another bet on the river if their draw missed and you bet out, but they might bet the river as a bluff if you check.

Preflop (Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
villian open raises from C/O; hero in SB 3-bets

Flop (K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls (or Hero bets, villain raises, Hero 3-bets, villain calls)

Turn (3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls

River (4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

vs passive calling station who maybe is calling down with KT or A8, value bet this.

vs someone you think is on a draw and unlikely just calling with a made hand and not going to call another bet, checking to induce a bluff is good

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gregorio,
thank you, this is not a spot I've ever considered...maybe others can help us decide if this is +ev. btw, i think you can raise the river if he bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has a pair too often to check there. Even if he doesn't, it's a pretty crazy bluff after we 3bang the flop; does anyone ever c/f here? I think even most Lagtards realize that nobody does. I'd def. raise if he bets though.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
vs. aggressive opponent who isn't likely to call down with a mediocre made hand, if you have been betting a hand like TP on F &amp; T, and they have been calling on a draw heavy board, and no draw gets there on the river, then they probably won't pay off another bet on the river if their draw missed and you bet out, but they might bet the river as a bluff if you check.

Preflop (Hero has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
villian open raises from C/O; hero in SB 3-bets

Flop (K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls (or Hero bets, villain raises, Hero 3-bets, villain calls)

Turn (3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
Hero bets, villain calls

River (4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])

vs passive calling station who maybe is calling down with KT or A8, value bet this.

vs someone you think is on a draw and unlikely just calling with a made hand and not going to call another bet, checking to induce a bluff is good

[/ QUOTE ]

gregorio,
thank you, this is not a spot I've ever considered...maybe others can help us decide if this is +ev. btw, i think you can raise the river if he bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has a pair too often to check there. Even if he doesn't, it's a pretty crazy bluff after we 3bang the flop; does anyone ever c/f here? I think even most Lagtards realize that nobody does. I'd def. raise if he bets though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any check by me here will be followed by a raise.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

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vs. aggressive opponent who isn't likely to call down with a mediocre made hand, if you have been betting a hand like TP on F &amp; T, and they have been calling on a draw heavy board, and no draw gets there on the river, then they probably won't pay off another bet on the river if their draw missed and you bet out, but they might bet the river as a bluff if you check.

Preflop (Hero has A K)
villian open raises from C/O; hero in SB 3-bets

Flop (K 8 7)
Hero bets, villain calls (or Hero bets, villain raises, Hero 3-bets, villain calls)

Turn (3)
Hero bets, villain calls

River (4)

vs passive calling station who maybe is calling down with KT or A8, value bet this.

vs someone you think is on a draw and unlikely just calling with a made hand and not going to call another bet, checking to induce a bluff is good


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gregorio,
thank you, this is not a spot I've ever considered...maybe others can help us decide if this is +ev. btw, i think you can raise the river if he bets.


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I think he has a pair too often to check there. Even if he doesn't, it's a pretty crazy bluff after we 3bang the flop; does anyone ever c/f here? I think even most Lagtards realize that nobody does. I'd def. raise if he bets though.


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Any check by me here will be followed by a raise.


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And the raise is to possibly fold hands that beat us or get paid 1 more bet from hands we do beat?

Plz elaborate

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

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vs. aggressive opponent who isn't likely to call down with a mediocre made hand, if you have been betting a hand like TP on F &amp; T, and they have been calling on a draw heavy board, and no draw gets there on the river, then they probably won't pay off another bet on the river if their draw missed and you bet out, but they might bet the river as a bluff if you check.

Preflop (Hero has A K)
villian open raises from C/O; hero in SB 3-bets

Flop (K 8 7)
Hero bets, villain calls (or Hero bets, villain raises, Hero 3-bets, villain calls)

Turn (3)
Hero bets, villain calls

River (4)

vs passive calling station who maybe is calling down with KT or A8, value bet this.

vs someone you think is on a draw and unlikely just calling with a made hand and not going to call another bet, checking to induce a bluff is good


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



gregorio,
thank you, this is not a spot I've ever considered...maybe others can help us decide if this is +ev. btw, i think you can raise the river if he bets.


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I think he has a pair too often to check there. Even if he doesn't, it's a pretty crazy bluff after we 3bang the flop; does anyone ever c/f here? I think even most Lagtards realize that nobody does. I'd def. raise if he bets though.


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Any check by me here will be followed by a raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

And the raise is to possibly fold hands that beat us or get paid 1 more bet from hands we do beat?

Plz elaborate

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stokken,
he's not really saying anything groundbreaking here. All he's saying is we are WAY ahead of the other guy's range since
-the guy never raised the turn
-the river was a blank
-we have TPTK.

So why not raise and get lots of frustrated calls from worse Kx. I think this works against the most unthinking semi-agro players.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

[ QUOTE ]
heisenberg,
"If a loose player who isnt a spew monkey, but is agressive "

are you talking about the 45/10/1 type miles mentioned? Can you think of other player types?


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Yes the 45/10/1.0 type, same with the
60/3/0.9 type

The key is loose (so they call postflop with inadequate odds) and capable of bluffing, but not so much that they raise all the time like most spewmonkeys.

When you see a spew monkey going call/call they probabily have a really weak hand planning to showdown, unless the pot was multiway and ended heads up on the river. This is because they semi-bluff so agressivly.

Loose/semi-passive players have draws and even more made hands in their range.

I find 0.9-1.5 being the magic AF, but it of course depends on the game.

It also helps if they cant hand read, because they may think your bluffable in almsot all situations if you check.. Especially cause you bet them so thin for value.

A lot of deceent-good hands reading players will assume you have a made hand planning to showdown once you check, since they knows you would probabily bet a missed draw on a drawy board.
Obviously depends on the situation tho..

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

All,
What about the following:
you open qh9h in the sb and a 35/15/1 calls in the BB. You've haven't played many hands together but you suspect he sucks and doesn't yet know you are 43 wtsd.
the flop comes something like T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
you bet, he calls
turn is an 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
you bet, he calls
river is K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

fwiw, I might bet my whole range there if I were villain and somehow made it to the river in this manner.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

Yah I think c/c is standard there.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yah I think c/c is standard there.

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MacGuyV,
is this c/c against everybody or just the player type I mentioned?

fwiw, if I'm hero I often 3-barrel there with whiffed diamonds.

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Yah I think c/c is standard there.

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MacGuyV,
is this c/c against everybody or just the player type I mentioned?

fwiw, if I'm hero I often 3-barrel there with whiffed diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think vs. just about anyone; not enough worst hands that call. I mean it's a blind battle &amp; he has 2 cards so you have to discount Ace high more than usual right?

Re: Inducing river bluffs
 

easy c/c

villain sucks so there are lots of busted draws he can bluff with and a bet will not be called by many, if any, worse hands