BaronZeus vid hands turned into BankRoll Related thread
 

thought I would start a micro's post on the topic.

I didn't like the stars 99 hand

BZ is in OTB 5handed with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
he 3bets and mindgamer in SB 3bets ... BZ caps
<font color="green">i think cap is pretty standard especially against someone who is playing back at you hard</font>

flop 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BZ bets and MG calls

turnA [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BZ bet/folds

<font color="green">in spots like this (ie. against an aggressive tard) I'll check behind (and call most rivers; i wont like K-J) ... my check is mostly due to the PF cap. the cap gives you a much narrower range (it's not like you have A4o here ... villain can put hero on pockets or big aces AK, AQ. Betting the turn allows an aggressive opponent to outplay you (especially if you appear to be able to bet/fold ... bet/fold is great tool, but can also be a curse)</font>

<font color="red">edit</font>
lol ... OK, so he says this a couple of hands after

mod edit: the thread morphed so title modified to reflect this

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

yeah he states if I recall that the bet/fold line has to be dropped to c/c once in awhile to keep them honest.

Others noted he folds too much which I thought a bit too, especially one hand where I thought it was bet/call for sure. Not sure if he gets distracted when he had the phone calls and action on both tables.

The thing that got me for the most part was his attitude, which was obviously a lot calmer than I would be with some of the suckouts he had against him.

I think I counted 8 suckouts. I have definitely had sessions liket that but when you lose 4.50 instead of 450 on a hand its a lot easier to be calm.

$450 is my mortgage payment, 4.50 is lunch.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

i bet/call there

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
i bet/call there

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO - once you bet call you pretty much give up your hand an let a reasonable player bet or check the river correctly

are you calling any river (just to look him up?) ... you'll be putting in 3big bets into this pot at this point (this is far too many)

if you want to 'look him up' ... the 3rd alternative (not to be used too often) is 3bet/fold check behind

I generally will use this against a player that has been playing back at me a little too often (it will either calm them down for a while, or make them pay off more)

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah he states if I recall that the bet/fold line has to be dropped to c/c once in awhile to keep them honest.

Others noted he folds too much which I thought a bit too, especially one hand where I thought it was bet/call for sure. Not sure if he gets distracted when he had the phone calls and action on both tables.

The thing that got me for the most part was his attitude, which was obviously a lot calmer than I would be with some of the suckouts he had against him.

I think I counted 8 suckouts. I have definitely had sessions liket that but when you lose 4.50 instead of 450 on a hand its a lot easier to be calm.

$450 is my mortgage payment, 4.50 is lunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the thread in the mid-hi short handed, everyone thought he was way more emotional than he should have been. This is an interesting observation -- just shows that as you move up you should be more immune to changing your attitude towards suckouts. All the high stakes think he is more emotional, lower stakes think he is less.

He's a RL friend of mine who started the same time I did, but just invested way more time and was frankly just better than me by a lot. I watched it and basically thought he hasn't changed since I watched him grind micro stakes.

This hand and his folding KJ on QJT board to a bet/raise stood out to me most. I talked to him and he's convinced he probably should have checked turn and called a river bet against this opponent with 99.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

[ QUOTE ]

$450 is my mortgage payment, 4.50 is lunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really poor way of looking at things! 7-8 bets is 7-8 bets irrespective to the fact that it is $450 instead of $4.50 or even $4500!

LOL @ you're mortgage being $450... wanna switch mortgages? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

$450 is my mortgage payment, 4.50 is lunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really poor way of looking at things! 7-8 bets is 7-8 bets irrespective to the fact that it is $450 instead of $4.50 or even $4500!

LOL @ you're mortgage being $450... wanna switch mortgages? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

when i play I don't even pay attention to the amount of bets that have gone into the pot

when I first moved 2-4 pots seemed to be so large (and most likely effected my play) ... I stayed there for a long time (despite have a roll to move up on multiple sites)

an odd thing happened to be when I went down to Aruba earlier this year ... and it changed my perspective on the game
first day I played a 3-6 game (it sucked so bad and moved so slow that it wasn't even interesting)
a couple of days when by my gang had a early night (being a night worker, I was pretty bored and had about 5hours to kill before I would be sleepy)
there was a 3-6 and 20-40 kill game going ... i was looking at both (i knew i could take the higher game ... and it seemed more like a 'Game' then playing 'cards' - if you know what i mean)
i sat down with 1K (told myself who cares if I lose it) ... and I'm not sure what happened. Third hand in I pick up AK, and doubled my stake ([censored]!!!!! - a 1K pot, Jesus H Christ ... it should have made me wet my pants, but in my head it was 'just a pot' it was no different)

whatever happened it was transcendental ... every hand I play now is just ' a hand' ... every pot, just 'a pot' - if i lose or win it doesn't really matter, in the end I'll win my standard win rate.
This major attitude change has allowed my to move up without really noticing what level I'm (currently I'm playing mostly 5/10, and 10/20 a few times ... but still play 1-2 at a couple of site where I'm working off a bonus ... I'll still play within a reasonable limit for whatever roll I have, but when I play in my head, 10c/20c is no different than $10/$20 . Only who you are playing and what the situation is matters. Tolerance to loss is a great skill in this game

just my 2cents

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

Thanks for the info there PB. I completely agree with you BUT my mind isn't there yet. Although the comment was meant to be humourous I was saying it because I know that is the ideal point of view to have but one that I cannot bring myself to.

That is why I cashed out 2 times already, because even though I am ready to play 3-6 easy enough I just can't justify 'gambling' that money when I still owe money and the winnings were used to buy such things as this computer that I am typing on now and getting my car fixed.

From a micro point of view, I think its important to know what you are doing and care about the money because it does become very easy to think awe its just chips or its just 4 bucks and before you know it, its donked away.

From a personal point of view I am living on a fixed income and still owe 20k from when I first got sick. I know there are others in the micros who should move up as well but for whatever reason they stay at the micro levels.

This comes from a guy who lost $250k(which took me 2 years to build up) in one day on the stock market, so I value the money for what it is worth to me now more than ever.

That one day is a reminder to me of what risk is and what happens when you stop thinking about it as money.

The thing is, people may say, but you are a winning player (well they may not say it but I am a winning player with 99% certainty) and therefore its just profit but when you have the money in your pocket no matter how its gained it is yours to use.

By taking the money out of my account when I did I basically did a few things. I gave myself time to study some more and enjoy my winnings for the accomplishment of what it was.

No matter what happens now in poker for me, the quality of my life and my families life has improved.

Tolerance to lose money disappears when your life changes because of it.

I think the same can be said for winning. Tolerance to win money is just as important. I still get rooked when I take someone for 6 bucks at a micro limit table, then do it again when he reloads. If I get that high from winning, its inevitable that I get low when I lose.

I think that is the major difference between a professional and an amateur player, the ability that you describe, to be able to win or lose without severe emotional attachment to the outcome of the match.

I am getting better at it but still have a ways to go.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

This is the whole premise behind BR management.

If your stock portfolio was worth $15 Billion, then losing $250K on one day would not be an issue. (please note that I am not trying to offend you here, only show a point)

The is the importance of being adequately rolled for the limits you play. Thinking about how much money you are actually losing or winning or how big in $$ the pots are will typically (prolly 95%) force you to play sub-optimally. When you do this, it is 100% -EV.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the whole premise behind BR management.

If your stock portfolio was worth $15 Billion, then losing $250K on one day would not be an issue. (please note that I am not trying to offend you here, only show a point)

The is the importance of being adequately rolled for the limits you play. Thinking about how much money you are actually losing or winning or how big in $$ the pots are will typically (prolly 95%) force you to play sub-optimally. When you do this, it is 100% -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Nothing to add.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

Adequately rolled is not just a number however which is what I was trying to say.

The calmness that baronzeas articulated was what I was commenting on and was stating that even at 4.50 pots I don't have the calmness he has at 450 dollar pots.

It just pointed out to me where I need to go beyond building bankroll in order to handle playing at levels which can make a real difference to the quality of life my family and myself can have.

The mechanics of winning at limit is more than just knowledge of proper valuations and the application of maximizing odds when in your favour.

Winning is about understanding and coping with the real value of the money (chips) you are playing with.

If you can't conceptually handle the expectation of quality of life on your play then you aren't ready to move up.

The real value of money to me is wholly different to that of an eighteen year old college student.

While I understand the merit behind the premise that you should judge the transactions of poker as an exchange of chips, I don't believe that approach is practical.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
The real value of money to me is wholly different to that of an eighteen year old college student.

While I understand the merit behind the premise that you should judge the transactions of poker as an exchange of chips, I don't believe that approach is practical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in my 30s

[ QUOTE ]
It just pointed out to me where I need to go beyond building bankroll in order to handle playing at levels which can make a real difference to the quality of life my family and myself can have.
...
Winning is about understanding and coping with the real value of the money (chips) you are playing with.

If you can't conceptually handle the expectation of quality of life on your play then you aren't ready to move up

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO ... (and not trying to offend in anyway) this is a really [censored] up way to think about a game where skill is only a marginal factor (this isn't a game like "Go" ... you can master every skills possible, be 8000times better than your oppoents - but you can still lose everything)

if you have money to burn - playing games are fun (if the money isn't there - don't play)

some people enjoy the excitement of burning money (of gambling) ... personally, I like to Game

unless you win a WPT donkfest - poker will not likely change your life

sure - any winning player (over the long run) think about 'becoming a pro' ...
but seriously ... you need two years of livable money plus a large bankroll, plus protection (that's like 150K!!!!!!!!!!)

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

[quote IMO ... (and not trying to offend in anyway) this is a really [censored] up way to think about a game where skill is only a marginal factor

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense taken, I agree completely. I was just articulating my mucked up thinking because the process of documenting this kind of thinking is what helps me here.

I wish I could think that way that you do but admit I don't.

What I am saying is that the 50 dollar initial investment I started with becomes real at a certain point to me. I wish it didn't.

No matter what value that may be for each of us, I am sure that many will eventually hit that 'cap' which is what I was saying; the difference between being a pro and being an amateur.

I am admitting quite clearly that I am such an amateur that I get upset when I lose 4.50 in one pot.

The forum can teach me how to play properly and logic can be there to back up my play 100% of the time but until my thick brain is able to separate the money from the chips, until I am able to detach emotionally from the outcome, I am only going to go so far.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

Hi Smurph64. It's something we all struggle with. And I too like to articulate my mucked up thinking. So...

There are two skills that poker players need to learn if they're going to be successful:

1) How to play hands. This means improving your understanding of the game and training your intuition via a combination of thinking about poker away from the table + actual pokering experience.

2) How to play poker. Outside of writing books and articles and posts and such, the best strategic thinking in the world is only as useful as your ability to apply it accurately and consistently at the table. This becomes increasingly important as relative edges get smaller due to tougher games, higher rake, etc. It includes things like bankroll management too, since if you go busto it all comes to a grinding halt.

It's even more difficult to view chips as just chips when they represent food, mortgage payments, or, Jeebus-forbid, keeping your children clothed. Likewise if you're in a position where the value of money, or the price of failure, has become acutely clear to you. But you're actually dealing with two separate issues:

(a) Getting so caught up in the nominal dollar value of the virtual chips you're throwing around that you can't grasp their real value. I don't mean not valuing money in the "it's only $1... what the hell" sense, but rather understanding that the actual worth of your chips, and your roll by extension, is the opportunity they represent. You seem to be over-valuing the "I can sell them to the site for cash to buy things/pay off debts," and undervaluing the "I can use them to generate a steady, and hopefully increasing, income stream for the foreseeable future," part.

It can be hard to keep the faith when everyday pressures intrude in this abstract world we work so hard to maintain in all its pristine, theoretical glory, but I still remember the day I realized that I would only ever be a few hundred bucks + an internet connection away from a useful, relatively stable revenue stream. Takes some of the pressure off those of us who find ourselves taking unconventional paths through life.

(b) Wanting to win. It can be difficult for driven, competitive people to get used to the fact that so much of being successful at poker is learning how to lose gracefully. We've all heard that "to be a good loser you have to first be a loser," but given how much randomness is involved in pokering it's impossible to be successful if you don't first let go of this sort of idea. Or at least redefine winning. The drive to get better is still perfectly helpful. As is the desire to make good decisions as often as possible. But as long as we continue to suffer from the beats, individually or as part of a bad run, we handicap ourselves in a game in which small edges are all that separate consistent winners from marginal losers.

I've said it before, but for me this all boils down to expectations. Desire in the zen sense of things. When I want to win, or expect that I should because of all the time and effort I've spent to make myself into a winning player, I get frustrated when it doesn't happen in the short term. Which makes it that much harder. I'm at my best when I let go of all my emotional baggage and truly accept that everything except the quality of my decisions is completely out of my control. I sometimes lose, I sometimes win, but when I'm playing well I float through it all with a serenity that is one of the great pleasures of my life.

This gets harder when I'm losing consistently and/or am playing in a game where I think I have a significant edge. It makes me want to win. Now. Watching your month's earnings, or your hopes of moving up sooner rather than later, or even just a run of good pokering you're justifiably proud of evaporate in a session or two can be absolutely demoralizing, even though you know it shouldn't be.

I know I'm a winner in the games I play. I've proven it over and over. But instead of allowing myself to let go, with the understanding that things happen in the fullness of time, I still all-too-often let my ego take over. And unfortunately he's ungood at teh poker.

The thing that most impresses about truly good mid-high players is how well they manage to keep their [censored] together in the face of what might otherwise be crushing adversity. They all seem to do this a little differently, but the end result is the opportunity to apply the full scope of their talent more often than their opponents, which is critical in tough games where a lot of your expectation comes from increased frequency of mistakes due to tilt. As Tommy Angelo says, "everyone takes turns tilting. Skip your turn." If only it was as easy as it sounds. Oh well. Baby steps.

Happy pokering.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

detruncate5,

nice post, sir.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

I apologise for bumping this, but I just read and [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Detruncate's post.

Re: BaronZeus vid hands
 

I just got a copy of The Poker Mindset and started reading it and I must say its the perfect book to read to address this issue.

I am on chapter two and already found some fatal thinking flaws I need to correct and I haven't even got to the good part yet.

I remember when I first started posting about bankroll management building and using profits and the like to run up at the higher levels, essentially for free.

But it really isn't a good plan. Short term thinking and playing result poker.

On my third run up the pole I guess its time to start thinking long term and stop playing these little games.

Good stuff. Thanks for the input.