is this easy?
 

villain and I have been overbetting pots at each other a lot recently, and neither of us has been showing down vs the other much. I've been sniffing out his blocking bets and raising him off of them as well, so I'm sure he's a little frustrated at that.

[converter messed up this hand, so I’ll try to correct it manually]

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $24.65
UTG+1: $33.35
CO: $48.80
Button: $23.40
SB - Guruman: $21.35
BB: $10.55

(6 players) Guruman is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Pre-flop:
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Guruman calls $0.15 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $0.85)</font>, BB checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($0.1, 6 players)

Guruman checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $30</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Guruman...</font>

I mean, he never wants his bet called and I've underrepresented my hand right? I think if he wanted me to get my stack in he'd lead out a blocking bet and shove over the top of a raise given our recent history. My issue is really less with him and more with the possibility of a flush draw behind me seeing 3-1 and getting frisky.

Re: is this easy?
 

umn...fold

Re: is this easy?
 

i think there must be something wrong with your converter because this makes no sense. he bet $30 into an unraised .85c pot. I also don't understand why you seem to think this bet is directed at you when there are 6 players to the flop.
if he is really insane and might do this with any two cards then go ahead and call. you have to be pretty sure that he is in fact insane.

also shouldn't the pot be $1.50 if there are 6 limpers????

Re: is this easy?
 

I know what you're thinking. Does he have a set, two pair, or only a draw. Well, with all the excitement, I got to tell you, nobody really knows. But seeing as this is no-limit hold-em, and he can take your entire stack with this little 15-cent hand, you gotta ask yourself one question: do you feel lucky?

Re: is this easy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know what you're thinking. Does he have a set, two pair, or only a draw. Well, with all the excitement, I got to tell you, nobody really knows. But seeing as this is no-limit hold-em, and he can take your entire stack with this little 15-cent hand, you gotta ask yourself one question, do you feel lucky?

[/ QUOTE ]
POTY.

Re: is this easy?
 

Over the past couple months of seriously retooling my game, I've learned something that applies to this hand: Your opponents aren't really as sophisticated as they constantly seem to be, and you don't really need to be asking questions like this.

Yes, he could be trying to steal a pot, or he could have a better ace than you and not like the fact that there are four opponents ready to suck out on him with all of those draws, or he could have a monster and be thinking that with that many people in the pot, someone just has to have an ace that they don't want to fold. But none of that is really important to your decision. What is important is this:

You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position with a mediocre hand and two players left to act after you do.

This means fold. Yes, Villain could be making a big error that could win you a whole buy-in. But if he will do it now, he'll do it again later and hopefully you will be in a position to capitalize on it. This is not that time.

Really, I've learned that the key to the micros is to just sit back, play it really simple, and wait for the donkeys to screw up when I'm way ahead.

Re: is this easy?
 

Hope you folded.

Re: is this easy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Over the past couple months of seriously retooling my game, I've learned something that applies to this hand: Your opponents aren't really as sophisticated as they constantly seem to be, and you don't really need to be asking questions like this.

Yes, he could be trying to steal a pot, or he could have a better ace than you and not like the fact that there are four opponents ready to suck out on him with all of those draws, or he could have a monster and be thinking that with that many people in the pot, someone just has to have an ace that they don't want to fold. But none of that is really important to your decision. What is important is this:

You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position with a mediocre hand and two players left to act after you do.

This means fold. Yes, Villain could be making a big error that could win you a whole buy-in. But if he will do it now, he'll do it again later and hopefully you will be in a position to capitalize on it. This is not that time.

Really, I've learned that the key to the micros is to just sit back, play it really simple, and wait for the donkeys to screw up when I'm way ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone memorize this last sentence please.

Re: is this easy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know what you're thinking. Does he have a set, two pair, or only a draw. Well, with all the excitement, I got to tell you, nobody really knows. But seeing as this is no-limit hold-em, and he can take your entire stack with this little 15-cent hand, you gotta ask yourself one question, do you feel lucky?

[/ QUOTE ]
POTY.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: is this easy?
 

here's my problem,

that bet screams "don't call me". I mean screams it. Screams "scared of the flush draw."

I also had a specific history with this guy.

you guys are saying don't make big mistakes. Passing up clear opportunities to win stacks are big mistakes.

<font color="white">I called, everyone behind me folded, and villain had 2nd pr no kicker no draw. Then villain had no chips.

I already hear "you got lucky, don't do that ever again." but the fact is that</font> I don't think you need much of a read on a player to rule out big big hands and any draws here. that leaves a range that we're ahead of and a big pot there waiting for the taking. <font color="white">Villain made a huge and typical microNL mistake: turning a hand with value into a pure bluff. He also totally gave away his weakness with the size of his bet. I mean cmon, a set is NEVER going to shove into a $1 pot there.
</font>
Again, this guy was capable of blocking bets and postflop folds. Given that information he sure understands pot odds and would try to push flush draws out in that situation. Given his specific history with me he's likely to overbet the pot in doing so. Given the size of the overbet, he's likely to have a really crappy hand that absolutely does not want to be called.

I'm not trying to make it that complex. I think folding would make the thought process too complex because it would imply that villain is overbetting a big made hand and anticipating that I (or someone) would read that bet as weak and make the call with a lesser hand. IMO someone who overbets his stack into that micro pot is not on that level.

Those of you who advocated a fold, I have a couple of questions for you:

1)what specific range do you give villain here?
2)what's the worst hand you'll call with here?

thx!

Re: is this easy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
that bet screams "don't call me".

[/ QUOTE ]

This bet screams a lot of things. Without proper reads we cant be sure we have the best hand here often enough in this spot.

[ QUOTE ]
I also had a specific history with this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you have a read that this guy might shove this flop very often with a hand that you beat why are you posting it here?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you need much of a read on a player to rule out big big hands and any draws here.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes you do

[ QUOTE ]
Given the size of the overbet, he's likely to have a really crappy hand that absolutely does not want to be called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or he wants you to think that, while he has a monster. Or he is just showing AJ and has you dominated.

Folding here is correct because the pot is tiny, and you have top pair not so good kicker.

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you who advocated a fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I think everyone is advocating a fold and no one is advocating a call

Re: is this easy?
 

responded to everything but the questions there sightless.

Re: is this easy?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Over the past couple months of seriously retooling my game, I've learned something that applies to this hand: Your opponents aren't really as sophisticated as they constantly seem to be, and you don't really need to be asking questions like this.

Yes, he could be trying to steal a pot, or he could have a better ace than you and not like the fact that there are four opponents ready to suck out on him with all of those draws, or he could have a monster and be thinking that with that many people in the pot, someone just has to have an ace that they don't want to fold. But none of that is really important to your decision. What is important is this:

You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position with a mediocre hand and two players left to act after you do.

This means fold. Yes, Villain could be making a big error that could win you a whole buy-in. But if he will do it now, he'll do it again later and hopefully you will be in a position to capitalize on it. This is not that time.

Really, I've learned that the key to the micros is to just sit back, play it really simple, and wait for the donkeys to screw up when I'm way ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice post

Re: is this easy?
 

Insta fold.

Re: is this easy?
 

Given the description in the op, I would call this. Seems like the type of player to make this play with QJ, KJ etc. I think we are way ahead most of the time. I wouldn´t get too hung up on the fact that we have AT here, and that tpgk usually is not a "good" hand.

Re: is this easy?
 

ok, this thread is getting off track here and I'm partly to blame for that, so let me try to correct it because I think that there's actually something interesting in here.

[ QUOTE ]
Well if you have a read that this guy might shove this flop very often with a hand that you beat why are you posting it here?

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s at the end of the op, but I’ll address it again in a sec. To get to that:

[ QUOTE ]
You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position with a mediocre hand and two players left to act after you do.

This means fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position

When making decisions for stacks position becomes irrelevant because there will be no future actions. We all obv already know that.

with a mediocre hand

of course hand strength is not absolute, it’s relative. That absolute that I would be concerned with is hand robustness. For example, if I feel that I’m ahead but have a low pp then I’d still have to fold because of the myriad random ways that villain could outdraw me by catching a pair - even with a random unmade hand. With this hand though, when I’m ahead I’m unlikely to be outdrawn unless villain is specifically holding a big combo draw. If I estimate that he’s not likely to be holding a combo draw here, then my hand will hold up a lot when it’s best, which allows for fudge room when I’m wrong.

and two players left to act after you do

This is the interesting part and was the reason that I posted the hand initially.

Hypothetically, lets say I have a holecard cam on CO and can see that he’s holding Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. (essentially I have to estimate that he has a weak hand that’s not drawing to lots of outs to even consider making a call. The debate thus far has been on the validity of that estimation, but if we assume just for a moment that it is correct…)

Given my hand and that information, can I make the call with two players left to act behind? Are we counting on players behind having the good sense to fold AJ or :gasp: AK there? Given that I have to be very right on the relative strength of my hand to CO, how vulnerable is its to being called and beaten from behind? What if a flush draw decides to come along for the ride behind me and pad my decision making a little?

really that was the debate in my mind.

Re: is this easy?
 

this hand is really not all that exciting. Yes, it's a big mistake to pass up hugely +EV situations, but I don't think this is one (not having read your results yet).

Put villain on a range: A4, 44, KhJh, JhTh, other 2-heart and gutshot hands, bluffs. You're ahead of some of it, you're crushed by some of it. When people get into donkey mode, it's hard to tell what they're thinking. In the end, it's kind of a tossup. Keep in mind that someone going for a checkraise with AQ, 44, A4 or KhJh is calling behind you, and you're in deep trouble.

If you like tossups with your whole stack, and can reload to try again, go for it. But if he's really spewing, you can be patient, and get it all in when you've got him crushed for sure.

[ QUOTE ]
The key to the micros is to just sit back, play it really simple, and wait for the donkeys to screw up when I'm way ahead.

[/ QUOTE ] Tape that to your monitor.

Re: is this easy?
 

[ QUOTE ]





[ QUOTE ]
You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position with a mediocre hand and two players left to act after you do.

This means fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are facing a decision for your whole stack while out of position

When making decisions for stacks position becomes irrelevant because there will be no future actions. We all obv already know that.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a newbie so can you explain this to me? I would think going all in negates positional advantage on future streets but not the current street, since the later betters of this round have more information to evaluate the relative strength of their hands.

If you were in last position, but, with only one bettor, wouldn't you be in a much better situation? With people behind you, you have to have to worry about possibly beating more than one hand. Additionally, people behind you are getting better pot odds once you've entered. Like I said, I'm a newbie, so my reasoning may be completely flawed -please point out where, though, so I can try to learn from this.

Re: is this easy?
 

I don't really understand the point in calling this. I don't see what the motive would be of this guy raising like this with crap. I've seen this a few times where someone bets $10 into a $.30 pot, while I have top pair, and it's really just not worth it with $0.10 in the pot imo. I can get my money in a lot better places then this.