multipart, turned underset deep
 

6-handed 5/10. I open the CO with 77 and the big stack. Button, an aggressive regular, calls with 2k behind. blinds fold. Relevant(?) history: he 3-barreled me from oop for stacks earlier at 10/20 on a Q65 A 2 board, he had 77, I called and won with AQ.

Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I lead $60 into $85, he calls.

Turn is 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Pot is $200, stacks are $1900 behind. Whats my best play?

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

he's raising jt on the flop right so three streets of value fury would be my vote.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

$180

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

$165, I'm at least calling a raise too

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

Anything but betting seems bad. I'd lead for ~170.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

180

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

i agree, seems like a standard bet?

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

Lead for $155.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

177, telling him in code that you have 77 and that the river is going to be a 7.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

DJ,

Are you debating your turn play because you don't want to burn 2 buyins on bottom set on this board or are you just looking for the best line to extract the most from the BN?

I understand that a heart/T-A is not the best card and you may be looking to moderate the pot until you see a 'safe river' but in doing so, you most likely wont maximize your gains for the river bet.

Your hand is so well disguised. Make it happen here with a nice bet.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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$165, I'm at least calling a raise too

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LOL.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

Why is that so funny?

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

lol i'm going to be retarded and say check raise looks sweeeet, because
1) he's aggressive so he'll probably bet, and
2) he'll never believe you. I'd probably get it in here.

please correct my very flawed logic.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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Why is that so funny?

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.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

I would think he RRs QQ-AA AK AQ pre, so I would put him on either: flush draw, pair+draw, or QK (maybe JT, not sure if he would raise the flop). vs all these hands I like a bet/3bet

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

184.99

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

I think it depends how he will view your c/r and if he might see it coming. Given that he's a regular I think he will view a c/r as not much else except a very strong made hand. Given his aggressive nature a c/c and a check might be a nice creative play; he's definitely going to view a turn c/c as pot-control and will act accordingly. He could be the type to actually raise a draw on the turn, I don't know.

Turn c/r seems to work well against dumb aggro players, but in this case I might just bet.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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Why is that so funny?

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I don't know - to me, and I think anyone else, it was OBVIOUS that you would AT LEAST call a raise. How could anyone even consider folding to a raise - it means you put him SQUARELY on J-10...(and even then you could still call depending on the size of his raise).

Nothing against the guy who posted the advice - I just found it humorous b/c I don't think it offered anything more than OP already knew; rather I think he was looking for the best line to extract the most value. To that end, i'm not sure - but if he's aggro, he's gonna bet the turn and a cr would be pretty nice. Its a tricky spot - but an enviable one too. Sorry for the "LOL".

Edit - consider stack sizes I guess its possible he could flat-call pf w/ QQ, but I don't know villain. I immediately assumed he'd rr QQ+, but looking at stacks that may not be the case.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

Alright, well, I went for a c/r, because I did indeed think he erred on the "dumb aggressive" side given our history. I think leading again is also fine, though. Anyhow, I checked, he bet $140, I made it $550, he called.

Pot is about $1300, he has $1350 left.

river is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. whats my play?

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

shove, pray he's got AJ or AT or JT that got tricky, buit you're beat here a decent amount

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

Go all-in and get snapped off by his J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, well, I went for a c/r, because I did indeed think he erred on the "dumb aggressive" side given our history. I think leading again is also fine, though. Anyhow, I checked, he bet $140, I made it $550, he called.

Pot is about $1300, he has $1350 left.

river is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. whats my play?

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Yea if your read is that he's really aggro, I like c/ring the turn because while he will check behind some of the time , this is your best shot of getting as much money in the middle as possible. The river seems like a pretty easy shove, and hope he talks himself into calling with worse, since in his mind, this is a pretty sick board for you to run a big bluff on given the preflop action.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

if hes a regular i liek the check raise since it will lower his floating frequency on future hands, and he wouldnt think that ud check a good hand to him on a scary board like that

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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if hes a regular i liek the check raise since it will lower his floating frequency on future hands, and he wouldnt think that ud check a good hand to him on a scary board like that

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oh man, that's sexy! only problem is, this is a terrible board to float on, a great board to double barrel, and the reason that he thinks you wouldn't check a good hand to him like that, is because you shouldnt! good response tho donk!

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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if hes a regular i liek the check raise since it will lower his floating frequency on future hands, and he wouldnt think that ud check a good hand to him on a scary board like that

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oh man, that's sexy! only problem is, this is a terrible board to float on, a great board to double barrel, and the reason that he thinks you wouldn't check a good hand to him like that, is because you shouldnt! good response tho donk!

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Are you serious? This is a terrible board to double barrell.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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if hes a regular i liek the check raise since it will lower his floating frequency on future hands, and he wouldnt think that ud check a good hand to him on a scary board like that

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oh man, that's sexy! only problem is, this is a terrible board to float on, a great board to double barrel, and the reason that he thinks you wouldn't check a good hand to him like that, is because you shouldnt! good response tho donk!

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Are you serious? This is a terrible board to double barrell.

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lol? this is an absolutely fantastic board to double barrel- i should take that back, this is a pretty good board to double barrel, but a fantastic board to triple barrel. the only reason to think it's not that great of a board to fire more guns at is bc it's such a terrible board to float is, but actionjackson apparently think it's a good flop to float, so who knows?! maybe the kids are floating this flop nowadays!

you're out of your mind if you think anything other.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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if hes a regular i liek the check raise since it will lower his floating frequency on future hands, and he wouldnt think that ud check a good hand to him on a scary board like that

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oh man, that's sexy! only problem is, this is a terrible board to float on, a great board to double barrel, and the reason that he thinks you wouldn't check a good hand to him like that, is because you shouldnt! good response tho donk!

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Are you serious? This is a terrible board to double barrell.

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lol? this is an absolutely fantastic board to double barrel- i should take that back, this is a pretty good board to double barrel, but a fantastic board to triple barrel. the only reason to think it's not that great of a board to fire more guns at is bc it's such a terrible board to float is, but actionjackson apparently think it's a good flop to float, so who knows?! maybe the kids are floating this flop nowadays!

you're out of your mind if you think anything other.

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Yeah ok, I agree with that. It could be a very good spot to double barrell if you follow up on the river with another bet. I think the worst line you can take with air on the turn is to bet again and give up on the river, though. But I'm guessing you agree with me after your last post.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

I can't really put him on a hand that beats you. AQ MAYBE?

The thing is, I think he never bets with the hands that we WTFPWN, so I give him a chance to be a donk and bet again. I c/r him AI or c/c his AI.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

river bet 400, call shove

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

woops i mean, i don't think he calls with most of the hands that we WTFPWN.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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Why is that so funny?

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I don't know - to me, and I think anyone else, it was OBVIOUS that you would AT LEAST call a raise. How could anyone even consider folding to a raise - it means you put him SQUARELY on J-10...(and even then you could still call depending on the size of his raise).

Nothing against the guy who posted the advice - I just found it humorous b/c I don't think it offered anything more than OP already knew; rather I think he was looking for the best line to extract the most value. To that end, i'm not sure - but if he's aggro, he's gonna bet the turn and a cr would be pretty nice. Its a tricky spot - but an enviable one too. Sorry for the "LOL".

Edit - consider stack sizes I guess its possible he could flat-call pf w/ QQ, but I don't know villain. I immediately assumed he'd rr QQ+, but looking at stacks that may not be the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please understand that the OP is not the only person who will take on board the advice in this thread, while DJ may know not to fold if he bets and get raised here, others may not. Mneh anyway.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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Go all-in and get snapped off by his J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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wait that doesn't sound like fun

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

DJ,

I prefer a b/3b on the turn because of this possible scenario. I alluded to it in my first post. Because there are many cards that are not ideal for you, you have to be able to create a nice balance of getting value from your winners while controlling (somewhat) the coolers. By b/3b'ng the turn you attempt to get the money in on the turn when you can comfortably feel as though you are ahead, all the while having enough behind as to not feel committed on the river if one of those crap cards peel off. But if a 'safe' card falls you will still have ample opportunity to get the money.

cliff notes to incoherent drunk ramble- I want to be able to get all the money in on the turn, or I want to have choices come a bad river. As played you bloated pot on the turn, thereby committing yourself to any river card that may fall good or bad.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

well jloc, thing is he probably isn't raising the turn very much, with his combodraws and such. agree/disagree? If we fire again on turn, we're looking mighty strong, because it's the "standard" line for playing a strong hand. However, bet > c/r is less standard, so he might level himself into thinking we have a weak hand, which is why I like checking the river as well.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

If I bet the turn and he just calls I am not upset about those developments.

a) I either have the best hand and he is making a mistake by drawing getting improper odds.
b) I have the worst of it and he is not maximizing on his value (since I have left room to get away from it or atleast not stack off come river).
c) If he does have a combo draw, I have no problem getting value on the turn and seeing if the river is friendly to me before committing.
d) If the river misses, I have a good opportunity to extract from inducing a bluff since this is a good spot for him to get over zealous I feel given all the possible hands that he feels kick my ass.
e) We can't rule out that he won't raise us if he feels we are pushing a light double barrel OR he actually has a legitemate second best hand.

Overall, I want to dictate when the STACKS go in. The turn doesn't allow for stacking unless he is a dumbass or has a better hand. Getting a few hundo in the pot on the turn is nice (as a c/r accomplishes) but getting the thousand+ in is my goal. And it is only my goal on the turn or a safe river. A c/r does not allow this line.

Again, sorry if I make no sense. I promise I do in my own head...

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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If I bet the turn and he just calls I am not upset about those developments.

a) I either have the best hand and he is making a mistake by drawing getting improper odds.
b) I have the worst of it and he is not maximizing on his value (since I have left room to get away from it or atleast not stack off come river).
c) If he does have a combo draw, I have no problem getting value on the turn and seeing if the river is friendly to me before committing.
d) If the river misses, I have a good opportunity to extract from inducing a bluff since this is a good spot for him to get over zealous I feel given all the possible hands that he feels kick my ass.
e) We can't rule out that he won't raise us if he feels we are pushing a light double barrel OR he actually has a legitemate second best hand.

Overall, I want to dictate when the STACKS go in. The turn doesn't allow for stacking unless he is a dumbass or has a better hand. Getting a few hundo in the pot on the turn is nice (as a c/r accomplishes) but getting the thousand+ in is my goal. And it is only my goal on the turn or a safe river. A c/r does not allow this line.

Again, sorry if I make no sense. I promise I do in my own head...

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jloc,

Great post. Excellent points. Agree completely.

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

How often if ever does he mix up his play?
I think calling with overpairs and AK/AQ are two seperate catagories.. so how often does he overset/2pair you?

My guess is he calls more than most agaisnt you IP? I would guess he has hearts here alot, and the other stuff less frequently. I also think he will show up with j10 once and a while.

Fair so far? If this is the case I think I bet, and bet most rivers.. I think a river check is kind of transparent and he wont bluff/thin value often enough.
So 175 on turn, if he raises I def 3b shove (stacks permitting I guess? not doing math its freakin early) and if he flatcalls I'll fire 485 on most rivers

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

I dunno jloc, I guess I would c/r and let him bluff his hand because he's overaggro, so I'd guess he'd be the one betting river if he missed. Also, A bet > c/r > check seems like you just messed up the hand somewhere imo.

I guess I feel bad for letting him draw so cheaply when there are like 22-23 potentially bad cards for us (out of 44, half the deck [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img])- namely 3A, 3K, 3Q, 4J, 4T, and 6 other hearts (5 if we have 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])

Are you check calling the river on blanks because he missed?, and think he's gonna be overaggro? On a river that brings a danger card, are you check calling anyway, because it might've been a missed draw? Let's assume 3/4 PSB for his river bet sizing.

I think it is very important to know if he would fire a river bluff after a 2 barrel than a barrel + c/r here, but I'm guessing most people would fire after 2 barrels instead of a barrel c/r (because its much more polarized to v strong, v weak hands)

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

sorry for being retarded jloc, I think your line is completely fine fwiw, I'm just trying to explain mine [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

Re: multipart, turned underset deep
 

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if hes a regular i liek the check raise since it will lower his floating frequency on future hands, and he wouldnt think that ud check a good hand to him on a scary board like that

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oh man, that's sexy! only problem is, this is a terrible board to float on, a great board to double barrel, and the reason that he thinks you wouldn't check a good hand to him like that, is because you shouldnt! good response tho donk!

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? This is a terrible board to double barrell.

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lol? this is an absolutely fantastic board to double barrel- i should take that back, this is a pretty good board to double barrel, but a fantastic board to triple barrel. the only reason to think it's not that great of a board to fire more guns at is bc it's such a terrible board to float is, but actionjackson apparently think it's a good flop to float, so who knows?! maybe the kids are floating this flop nowadays!

you're out of your mind if you think anything other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh wait, I thought you said you agree that it's a bad board to double barrell but good if you triple barrell. It's still a horrible board to double barrell if you're just going to c/f the river, that should be pretty obvious.