Guns in America
 

I was glancing through the 'numbers' section of the most recent Time Magazine.

One portion absolutely amazed me:

90
Number of guns in the U.S. for every 100 citizens, according to the 2007 Small Arms Survey, making it the most heavily armed country in the world. India has the second largest civilian gun-arsenal tally, with just four firearms per 100 people.

4.5 million
Number of new guns purchased in the U.S. each year, more than half of the 8 million produced worldwide.


To me, these are just startling numbers. I've always felt a little uneasy about how easy it is to attain firearms in the U.S. and all "guns don't kill people, people kill people" arguments aside i truly believe most people aren't responsible enough to own one.

What are your thoughts on this issue EL D forum?

Re: Guns in America
 

I was under the impression Canada was up there in terms of gun ownership, despite the discrepancy in gun-related crime between Canada and US?

Moore did a great job of making this point in 'Bowling for Columbine' even though his dumb ass ruined it by essentially ignoring the point he made to push his agenda.

Re: Guns in America
 

I remember Paul Phillips wrote what I thought was a very good blog entry on this subject a while back, one that, honestly, changed my mind a little.

(digs up link)

ah, here we go: http://extempore.livejournal.com/180946.html

Re: Guns in America
 

I hope more Americans get guns. An armed population is the last defense agains tyrany.

By the way, that is a good 'blog' entry on the subject.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember Paul Phillips wrote what I thought was a very good blog entry on this subject a while back, one that, honestly, changed my mind a little.

(digs up link)

ah, here we go: http://extempore.livejournal.com/180946.html

[/ QUOTE ]

would anyone mind posting some good points as I am drunk and dont want to read a bunch of stuff, lol

I think gun ownership would'nt be such a big deal if the ideals of the avg. American didnt include so much violent action. I own a gun but would never use it unless I had to absolutely have to but so many of my friends that own pretty much have it so that given the first legal or illeagal opportunity depending on the person will use them in a sec. I wonder if this 90 in 100 even tries to round up to the amount of illegally owned and guns that don't need to be registered. As really I wouldnt be surprised if the gunrate was more than 100 per 100 in the US.

Everyone I know besides me that has a gun has like 3+ and many have 6+ but this is a sample size that includes city/suburbs and rural areas withing a few miles of each other so not surprising.

Re: Guns in America
 

All my dads crazy gun friends wont buy a registered gun. They get them unregistered from gun shows.

I am also suprised paul phillips is so pro-gun. He is right though 100%

Re: Guns in America
 

O spit, is that Paul Phillips the poker player?

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember Paul Phillips wrote what I thought was a very good blog entry on this subject a while back, one that, honestly, changed my mind a little.

(digs up link)

ah, here we go: http://extempore.livejournal.com/180946.html

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, reading this changed my mind on this subject as well. Paul's very eloquent.

edit: also might want to include the second part.
shoot em up again

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
i truly believe most people aren't responsible enough to own one.

[/ QUOTE ]

what are most people responsible enough to own? a car? a knife? a credit card? a blender?

is it just americans who aren't responsible enough or the entire world?

and link to time article ifucan

Re: Guns in America
 

is this the alex jones blog? i [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] pp now.

Re: Guns in America
 

If you made this thread for any other reason than to settle a sidebet on O/U of replies before it gets locked, ysscky.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was glancing through the 'numbers' section of the most recent Time Magazine.

One portion absolutely amazed me:

90
Number of guns in the U.S. for every 100 citizens, according to the 2007 Small Arms Survey, making it the most heavily armed country in the world. India has the second largest civilian gun-arsenal tally, with just four firearms per 100 people.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is almost certainly wrong. According to this wikipedia article, there are between 1.2 and 3 million firearms in private homes in Switzerland, for 7 million people.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
90
Number of guns in the U.S. for every 100 citizens, according to the 2007 Small Arms Survey, making it the most heavily armed country in the world. India has the second largest civilian gun-arsenal tally, with just four firearms per 100 people.



[/ QUOTE ]

That stat seems way, way off.
From a Wikipedia article
[ QUOTE ]
In a study of gun ownership in selected western nations, Canada's level of gun ownership (21.8%) was similar to France's (23.8%) and Sweden's (16.6%). Of the eight countries compared, firearm ownership was highest in the United States (48.6%) and lowest in the Netherlands (2%).

[/ QUOTE ]


edit: Canada's population is 33 million, so they'd have to possess fewer than 132,000 guns to be under 4%. They have over 4.5 million legally registered guns and probably that many more unregistered ones.

Re: Guns in America
 

but hey, before this thread gets locked:

Is it possible for the government to abolish the right to bear arms by way of an amendment?

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
but hey, before this thread gets locked:

Is it possible for the government to abolish the right to bear arms by way of an amendment?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it is. If they go through the hassle of getting an amendment, the government can do about whatever they want as long as it doesn't spark a rebellion. The thing is, barring State judicial decisions to the contrary, you basically have no right to bear arms right now.

The current Supreme Court precedents say that the 2nd Amendment is a "Group" right, not an individual right, meaning that the right is upheld as long as someone is allowed to have weapons. Furthermore, that someone has been ruled to be the National Guard. On top of this, unlike most of the Bill of Rights, the 2nd Amendment is not applicable to states and municipalities, although that might be changing. Link

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
The current Supreme Court precedents say that the 2nd Amendment is a "Group" right, not an individual right, meaning that the right is upheld as long as someone is allowed to have weapons. Furthermore, that someone has been ruled to be the National Guard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Link?

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]

Sure it is. If they go through the hassle of getting an amendment, the government can do about whatever they want as long as it doesn't spark a rebellion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool just checking

This is what I don't get. When 'tyranny' comes along and legally outlaws guns, you guys think there's enough aware Americans with guns and the balls to rebel?

Re: Guns in America
 

Allowing gun ownership is not fatal to tyranny if the people won't rebel against you. There are a significant number of people who'd only rebel if guns were outlawed.

So it would probably be smarter for a tyranny not to outlaw guns. Then they could point at the one freedom they haven't crushed and say "See, we're not a tyranny".

Re: Guns in America
 

Wiki

I looked back and I was wrong. The Supreme Court has never ruled that the National Guard is the sole militia for 2nd Amendment purposes. However, they have ruled in 1965 and 1990 that the National Guard is the militia in other contexts. Indeed, a law was passed in 1903 basically replacing the historical militia with the National Guard.

Also, the Supreme Court has never ruled on the individual versus group model for 2nd Amendment Rights. However:

[ QUOTE ]
Presently, nine of the federal circuit courts support a collective rights model, two of the federal circuit courts an individual rights model, and the Supreme Court and one federal circuit court have not addressed the question

[/ QUOTE ]
The last time the Supreme Court ruled on the 2nd Amendment in 1939 in the case US v. Miller, they said that:

[ QUOTE ]
the “obvious purpose” of the Amendment was to “assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness” of the state militia and it “must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.”

[/ QUOTE ]
A more modern view of the 2nd Amendment is evidenced by a 1982 appellate court ruling upholding a local handgun ban. The ordinance became a model for weapon bans across the country:

[ QUOTE ]
United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), the only Supreme Court case specifically addressing that amendment's scope. There the Court held that the right to keep and bear arms extends only to those arms which are necessary to maintain a well regulated militia...
Because the second amendment is not applicable to Morton Grove and because possession of handguns by individuals is not part of the right to keep and bear arms, Ordinance No. 81-11 does not violate the second amendment.

[/ QUOTE ]
I spent two hours researching the above. That's how much I love you guys.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
i truly believe most people aren't responsible enough to own one.



[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it is certainly hard to refute that kind of data and logic.

I truly believe that most people aren't responsible enough to have kids. What causes more harm, irresponsible parents or irresponsible gun owners?

P.S. If you ever took a firearms course and observed gun owners at a firing range, I doubt you would ever repeat that statement.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Sure it is. If they go through the hassle of getting an amendment, the government can do about whatever they want as long as it doesn't spark a rebellion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool just checking



[/ QUOTE ]

Any changes to the Constitution require ratification by three-fourths of the states. So 13 states could block it by not ratifying. Anyone who can't name 13 states that would oppose such a change isn't trying very hard.

Also, I don't remember the exact number, but something like 45 states have a specific individual right to bear arms in their state constitutions.

[ QUOTE ]
When 'tyranny' comes along and legally outlaws guns, you guys think there's enough aware Americans with guns and the balls to rebel?

[/ QUOTE ]

When "tyranny" comes along, it won't arrive with a parade down Main Street. It will evolve through a gradual chipping away of rights. The do-gooders have been trying their best for decades to legislate how people should live their lives. The tyranny of the bureaucracy is much more likely in this country that the tyranny of a dictatorship. The danger is that people will accept the tyranny of the bureaucracy while sitting fat and happy in their homes with their guns.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
90
Number of guns in the U.S. for every 100 citizens, according to the 2007 Small Arms Survey, making it the most heavily armed country in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]


This can be a misleading statistic. Many people (or households, a more accurate statistic to use in my opinion) own more than one gun (I have only six guns). Thus the above statistics is bias and skewed – implying Americans are 'gun nuts', and can be read (not accurately but by biased implicitly) as 90 out of 100 or 90% own guns. An absolute number is not an accurate refection of distribution.

Just the Facts Please

According to the above link 49% of households in America own a gun and 31% of American adults own at least one firearm (1994). I assume these statistics do not include illegally owned firearms.



But all this aside, why would this be startling? Guns are useful tools, and useful tools are always in demand. That demand is being met in the USA.


[ QUOTE ]
i truly believe most people aren't responsible enough to own one [a gun].


[/ QUOTE ]

Should your specific beliefs be enacted into law? In addition, by what measure are you personally qualified to make this judgment about everyone else? Do you find individual freedoms abhorrent?

Is everyone responsible enough to go to the library and check out and read Mein Kampf without become a Jew Hater? If not, are you then the abritray authority to decide which books can and cannot be read by any one individual?

-Zeno

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]

edit: Canada's population is 33 million, so they'd have to possess fewer than 132,000 guns to be under 4%. They have over 4.5 million legally registered guns and probably that many more unregistered ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Misplaced your decimal point there. It would be 1.3 million to be under 4%.

Re: Guns in America
 

even if guns were 'illegal' to own, there would still be millions in the street in the hands of criminals. i wouldnt really feel safe if the only ppl that had guns were the ppl trying to steal from me and or murder my family. its not practical to be rid of them legally, and in our lifetimes, we will have the right to bear arms. thats all there is to it.

Re: Guns in America
 

It's not the law-abiding individuals who own guns that are the problem. It is the environment of easy-to-attain guns that has been created to cater to them which has caused the gun-control problem.

When millions of guns are being sold legally in the United States, a hefty amount are going to find their way into the hands of criminals.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any changes to the Constitution require ratification by three-fourths of the states. So 13 states could block it by not ratifying. Anyone who can't name 13 states that would oppose such a change isn't trying very hard.

[/ QUOTE ]
obv true now. not obv 50 or 100 years from now

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't remember the exact number, but something like 45 states have a specific individual right to bear arms in their state constitutions.

[/ QUOTE ]
had no idea about this. I assume it could be legally changed, correct?

[ QUOTE ]
When "tyranny" comes along, it won't arrive with a parade down Main Street. It will evolve through a gradual chipping away of rights. The do-gooders have been trying their best for decades to legislate how people should live their lives. The tyranny of the bureaucracy is much more likely in this country that the tyranny of a dictatorship. The danger is that people will accept the tyranny of the bureaucracy while sitting fat and happy in their homes with their guns.

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah I agree with this. I'd go so far as to say it's well on it's way

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i truly believe most people aren't responsible enough to own one.

[/ QUOTE ]

what are most people responsible enough to own? a car? a knife? a credit card? a blender?

is it just americans who aren't responsible enough or the entire world?

and link to time article ifucan

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa whoa, i didn't say "most people who own guns are to irresponsible to have one", i didn't call anyone out. I'm sure even the strongest pro gun supporters can agree that guns are a lot of responsibility and the ease with which people can attain them is a little disconcerting.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you made this thread for any other reason than to settle a sidebet on O/U of replies before it gets locked, ysscky.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why this thread deserves locking. I quoted some numbers and said the quantity of armed Americans makes me a bit uncomfortable. El D forum seems like an appropriate place to have this discussion, and i'm open minded as to why my view should be changed.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not the law-abiding individuals who own guns that are the problem. It is the environment of easy-to-attain guns that has been created to cater to them which has caused the gun-control problem.


[/ QUOTE ]

What gun-control problem? You simply state there is one. Why?

Let's take the data from the web link I posted and assume that it is more or less accurate. From that link 31% of American adults own a firearm. Now, look at it this way - 69% of American adults do not own a firearm, and that is the vast majority of adults, so why is there a "gun-control" problem?

In my opinion, there is no "gun-control problem" at all, in fact it is just the opposite; it is a travesty that more Americans do not own firearms (less than half of all households).

I propose that shooting skills, target competition, and firearm safety be a required class in all American High Schools and that responsible gun owernship is part of an individuals civil responsibility. At the end of the class everyone that passes is issued, free, one hand gun and one rifle at the school's expense (covered by issue of public bonds).

Happy shooting.

-Zeno

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
Allowing gun ownership is not fatal to tyranny if the people won't rebel against you. There are a significant number of people who'd only rebel if guns were outlawed.

So it would probably be smarter for a tyranny not to outlaw guns. Then they could point at the one freedom they haven't crushed and say "See, we're not a tyranny".

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking the guns from the population is the first thing that tyrants and dictators do when coming to power. Once the local population loses its firearms, the tyrant can then do just about anything they please (see history for examples). Afterall, the last thing that a dictator wants to do is to have to watch his back because of an armed population. And just remember, there is no retirement program for tyrants or dictators. They either die in office or die when that government falls.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't remember the exact number, but something like 45 states have a specific individual right to bear arms in their state constitutions.

[/ QUOTE ]


This can be overriden by the federal constitution.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]


In my opinion, there is no "gun-control problem" at all, in fact it is just the opposite; it is a travesty that more Americans do not own firearms (less than half of all households).




[/ QUOTE ]

Some years back, there was a rash of robberies and car jackings of foreign tourists in Florida. A local reporter interviewed a prisoner who was convicted of several such crimes and asked why the new focus on tourists. The answer was that Florida had recently adopted a much more liberal policy of allowing citizens to carry guns, and the crooks knew that foreign tourists could not be armed.


[ QUOTE ]
I propose that shooting skills, target competition, and firearm safety be a required class in all American High Schools and that responsible gun owernship is part of an individuals civil responsibility. At the end of the class everyone that passes is issued, free, one hand gun and one rifle at the school's expense (covered by issue of public bonds).

Happy shooting.

-Zeno


[/ QUOTE ]

Here, here. In the olden days of prehistory, I first learned to shoot in the Boy Scouts, probably at about age 12. I also took a class in Gun Safety and Marksmanship as a physical education elective in college. My university had a rifle range under the stadium grandstands. I'm sure that the mere suggestion of such things would cause cardiac arrest in the majority of today's nanny-staters.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was glancing through the 'numbers' section of the most recent Time Magazine.

One portion absolutely amazed me:

90
Number of guns in the U.S. for every 100 citizens, according to the 2007 Small Arms Survey, making it the most heavily armed country in the world. India has the second largest civilian gun-arsenal tally, with just four firearms per 100 people.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're twisting the numbers like the typical propgandists they are. They say "the most" because in pure numbers, we do have the most. But then they throw in "90 guns for every 100 citizens". If they looked at percentages, the third world crapholes like Somalia and Bangladesh probably have a much higher per-capita ownership. You can walk down to the corner bazaar in those places and buy a fully automatic AK-47 machinegun for like 40 bucks.

[ QUOTE ]
To me, these are just startling numbers. I've always felt a little uneasy about how easy it is to attain firearms in the U.S. and all "guns don't kill people, people kill people" arguments aside i truly believe most people aren't responsible enough to own one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn! Most of us should be dead! With 270 million guns running around loose in irresponsible hands in this country, it must be a freaking MIRACLE at least 5 or 10 million people a year aren't killed with guns.

As long as we're going around denying Constitutional rights based on beliefs, I don't believe most people are responsible enough to vote either. If people can't read English to the point that ballots have to be printed in 20 different languages, those people shouldn't be deciding how our country gets run. And how about the press? They leak national secrets, secret Grand Jury testimony (Bonds), make false accusations, declare elections won before counts are done, and just generally screw up. Shut the bastards down! No more free press.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember Paul Phillips wrote what I thought was a very good blog entry on this subject a while back, one that, honestly, changed my mind a little.

(digs up link)

ah, here we go: http://extempore.livejournal.com/180946.html

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that link offers any brilliant revelations, and I'm surprised that that argument can change anyone's mind. If it changed your mind, I guess you just hadn't given it enough thought. So, while I agree with most of it in principle, I do question the effectiveness of an individual's right to bear arms.

When the constitution was written, sure, a well armed populace would have just about been on an even keel with the government in terms of fighting power. But, today, if it ever came to a point where citizens were forced to defend themselves against the governement with weapons,I think firearms would be little more than an impedance. Paul says, "Mass exterminations are not possible against an armed populace. That is why the people are always legally disarmed first." I don't know if I agree with this. I think a more accurate statement might be, "Mass exterminations are much more difficult against an armed populace. That is why the people are always legally disarmed first."

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]

Some years back, there was a rash of robberies and car jackings of foreign tourists in Florida. A local reporter interviewed a prisoner who was convicted of several such crimes and asked why the new focus on tourists. The answer was that Florida had recently adopted a much more liberal policy of allowing citizens to carry guns, and the crooks knew that foreign tourists could not be armed.

[/ QUOTE ]
come on now, you don't really think the pro-gun people really care what happens to foreigners?

Re: Guns in America
 

Funs facts:

From 2001-2005 in the US:

An average of 42,000 people die in auto-accidents.
An average of 20,000 people die from the common flu.
An average of 17,000 people die from gun-related suicide.
An average of 11,000 people die from gun-related homicide.

When examining violent crime in the US from 2001-2005:

98% of violent crimes committed are non-fatal.

Of those, less than 10% are gun-related.

Re: Guns in America
 

"An average of 20,000 people die from the common flu."

you mean old people?

Re: Guns in America
 

Those numbers surprise me as well. The first one seems a little misleading to me though. I know a dozen people alone that have between 75 and 100 guns. I probably know many more people that are in that range it just hasn't been talked about.

I mean it's not something you ask unless you're already talking about guns. I also know some people that won't buy guns from a store because they think the govt is tracking everyone. For a while I sold guns and there was one guy (pretty high up guy at FedEx) that would give me his drivers license but would keep it covered while he gave it to me because he thought people were watching him.

The second stat you provided I assume it's the US gets that % of guns available to civilians. Either way that # is surprising.

FTR I'm not a gun nut. I like guns and in times past I've owned up to about 20 of them. I looked at them as just "some cool sh** to have. I was never the guy who had an arsenal because we were going to be attacked errr something.

Re: Guns in America
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible for the government to abolish the right to bear arms by way of an amendment?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure it is. If they go through the hassle of getting an amendment, the government can do about whatever they want as long as it doesn't spark a rebellion.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow.

The gist of the matter here is the understanding that the right to bear arms (or defend oneself) is not granted by the constitution or the government. It is the natural right of man to do so. The Bill of Rights only serves to remind us of that. And just because you might be able to get a supermajority of people to "vote" out their natural rights, doesn't really mean [censored] in the big picture. Could you see a constitutional amendment repealing the "right" to speech or religion?

And to preempt your counter, the supreme court is made up of men and men make mistakes. Eminent domain and campaign finance rulings are the two most recent that bite my ass. As a country we can hope that wiser courts will prevail and these cases will be overturned (and thus made in line with natural law)

Re: Guns in America
 

I own 6 guns, but I live in Texas.