4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

This is my first post-

Setting: Live 4/8 game, extremely loose and agressive. 3 of the first 4 pots I watched after sitting down were capped to 16 preflop 6-8 way. Villian is drunk and has been autoraising/reraising preflop with any two cards and continues to bet/raise to the river. Players at the table have starting going out of there way to isolate him with very aggressive play (everyone at the table is talking about how villian has rebought 3 times in the last hour alone). Other than villian most players seem typical of live low limit play (although many are whinning how it's always crap hands that are winning the pots).

I get T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villian is UTG and raises (surprise). 2 folds 1 caller, I reraise everyone else folds to blinds who call. Villian caps and everyone calls (5 players).

flop: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Villian bets flop, previous caller folds and I raise. Both blinds cold call and villian 3 bets I cap and both blinds again call.

Turn: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villian bets again. Action to me.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

raise and get the blinds out...

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

You should just call the flop.

The pot is huge and nothing you do can protect your hand at this point plus your equity changes quite a bit depending on what the turn brings.

As played and if you had just called the flop you should raise this turn for value and protection.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

You're up against two blinds who called two cold on the flop.

Twice.

I'd just call, but frankly I think a fold is close.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're up against two blinds who called two cold on the flop.

Twice.

I'd just call, but frankly I think a fold is close.

[/ QUOTE ]

the pot's huge. we can probably call for boatvalue alone.

there's a flush draw and straight draws possible. in other words, stuff they blinds will call with; raise the turn. if one of the blinds wake up and 3bet we can talk about folding the river UI. until that happens keep the foot on the gas.

welcome to the forums, by the way.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

if blinds 3 bet here you are probably beat by a 9

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should just call the flop.

The pot is huge and nothing you do can protect your hand at this point plus your equity changes quite a bit depending on what the turn brings.

As played and if you had just called the flop you should raise this turn for value and protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the forum.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're up against two blinds who called two cold on the flop.

Twice.

I'd just call, but frankly I think a fold is close.

[/ QUOTE ]

the pot's huge. we can probably call for boatvalue alone.

there's a flush draw and straight draws possible. in other words, stuff they blinds will call with; raise the turn. if one of the blinds wake up and 3bet we can talk about folding the river UI. until that happens keep the foot on the gas.

welcome to the forums, by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, yes, yall. It is expensive, but pays very well when you hit.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

Thanks all for the advice. I think if I could play this hand again I would raise the flop once (to try to get the blinds to fold). But once they call 2 cold, they're going to call 2 cold again so no point in raising the 2nd time.

For those curious on the turn I called (figuring that one of the blinds likely had a 9 and now I was calling for boat value). Clearly I had underestimated the "power of the big bet" on a small stakes table as one of the blinds folded to the single turn bet and the other blind agonized for 10-15 seconds before making the call (I'm now confident that a turn raise gets him to fold 80+% of the time). The river came a J and the drunk villan bet again, I called and the blind called. Thd drunk villian turned over 6 5 (surpise) and the blind turned over AJ and raked in a large pot.

I think I can take two key learnings away from this:

1. raising on the flop with an overpair of 10's only makes sense if I can get other players to fold. Hence why I think I would make the initial flop raise again but not the cap.

2. Never underestimate the "power of the big bet" in SSH (clearly there someplayers who will insta call the flop but you still have a chance to get them to fold to a big bet). Provided I still have an overpair after the turn, this is the best time to try to drive the overcard hands out of the pot.

Thanks all for the warm welcomes and the feedback on my hand.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

I don't see any problem with raising the flop twice. The only player showing aggression is the drunk and the blinds could be on two obvious draws. I think charging them the most possible to stay in the hand is the best way to go.

You should raise the turn. Again, the drunk could have ATC, based on your description. Your goal is to charge the blinds if they want to stay in the hand. Based on villain's play and table image, they could realize it may end up costing them 4 BB's to continue in the hand (this is especially true since every street has been capped thus far). If you are facing a raise from one of the blinds (and have noticed the one raising is a passive player), consider folding since you may be drawing to two outs. It's unlikely a passive player will try to steal this pot so a turn raise from a passive player on one of the blinds is a sign of strength, imho.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

None of the hands that you really want to fold on the flop (1 pair, gushots, and 2 overcards) are going to fold nomatter what you do on the flop. You should only be raising if your intent is to knock weaker draws (1 over card and backdoor draws) or you feel it's more profitable to push your equity edge now than to try and protect your hand on the turn.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
None of the hands that you really want to fold on the flop (1 pair, gushots, and 2 overcards) are going to fold nomatter what you do on the flop. You should only be raising if your intent is to knock weaker draws (1 over card and backdoor draws) or you feel it's more profitable to push your equity edge now than to try and protect your hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're misapplying a concept from SSHE, which isn't surprising since its almost always misapplied on these boards.

If you have an equity advantage, you should almost always raise.

I made that its own paragraph because its both simple and true. I'm not sure why people misunderstand this concept so often. In this hand, on the flop, you probably have a signifigant equity advantage given your opponents' ranges and actions.

You can find the concept on page 185 of SSHE Ed Miller and co say: "Normally if you have an edge you should exploit it by betting or raising. The larger your edge, the more important it is to push. When your edge is small, however, you don't lose much if you pass on it."

Preach on Ed.

He goes on to describe a game that in no way resembles the game OP is playing in. And gives two overpair examples, one where you should raise and one where you should call. The examples do not resemble OP's hand (Other than the fact that in the 'call' example, hero is holding TT without a backdoor draw).

FWIW I pokerstoved this hand with guesstimates of everyone's range, and we have ~30% equity in a five way pot--way more than enough to raise the flop.


Oh and the turn is another easy raise, IMO. What has anyone done to show they have a nine? Nothing. Spraying the extra bet will win you this pot way more than enough to make it worth it. If you want to force your opponents to 'make mistakes' this is the spot to do it as you will get people folding overcards when they shouldn't or wouldn't if they knew your hand.

Edited for grammar.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

jjh well put sir

in this hand, first time i'm seeing it, i raise flop and i raise turn

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

It's like you are just ignoring the secions in SSH and HEPFAP that say in a large pot you should pass on betting/raising the flop if it won't protect your hand and you are likely to to be able to protect it with a turn raise. (I'm assuming you know what I'm referring to but if you would like I can find page numbers.)

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's like you are just ignoring the secions in SSH and HEPFAP that say in a large pot you should pass on betting/raising the flop if it won't protect your hand and you are likely to to be able to protect it with a turn raise. (I'm assuming you know what I'm referring to but if you would like I can find page numbers.)

[/ QUOTE ]


It's like you are just ignoring all of HEFAP and SSHE where it says to push equity edges. It does say that you can pass on small equity edges to try and exploit larger ones on a bigger street; however, this is not a small equity edge. You have a drunk guy betting and raising at every oportunity with ATC. You have a substantial edge here and you should push it.

You should not blindly just call with vulnerable hands in big pots because you can't protect your hand. Instead, you should asses your opponent's range and think about what your equity is against that range. If you have a large expection (such as being 30% to win a hand in a five way pot), you should raise. If your edge is only slightly positive or zero, there are times when you should wait. Why? Because pushing these small edges isn't as important as pushing large edges. But if you pass on too many signifigant edges, you will lose money.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

Please look at the example in SSH starting on p. 163 and explain to me how that one differs from the hand in this thread. Thanks.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

lolll

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please look at the example in SSH starting on p. 163 and explain to me how that one differs from the hand in this thread. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Drunk villian capping every street with 6 high. I hope you see why this fact alters the example drastically. You're welcome.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

Something that I have thought about regarding this side discussion of SSHE when you can't protect your hand is that how many players at our live low limit tables are even considering pot odds when making their decisions whether they should call our bet or raise getting 15:1 , 10.5:1 or 4.1:1??? Hardly any of course. All they know is that have a drawing hand and many times just decide to go all the way whether you bet or whatever, not even knowing that they may be making a correct or incorrect call with their hand.

Reg this hand and OP's description of this drunken spaz donator, I raise the turn here, if he 3 bets us I call. River if he bets I call. Doesn't mean that the spaz can't have a big hand here but given his profile and past hand range you more often than not have him beaten.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's like you are just ignoring the secions in SSH and HEPFAP that say in a large pot you should pass on betting/raising the flop if it won't protect your hand and you are likely to to be able to protect it with a turn raise. (I'm assuming you know what I'm referring to but if you would like I can find page numbers.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Niediam. I think our edge on that flop vs. 3 opponets (granted one of them is nutso)is not very large. I think there is a similiar example in ssh but we have KK (?)Can't remember exactly. I think we are easliy up against at least 3 OC's not to mention flush and/or straight draws that can correctly call the flop.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

i just don't understand what niediam does when he's playing a hand of poker and it comes up and it's not 99% like an example from sshe or hepap [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

push your damn edges! especially the big ones! don't make babar angry!

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

also i would feel so stupid not raising this flop, just to see the turn come an ace or something. get the money in while you're ahead. also on the turn anyone with a 9 would checkraise, it seems like, which is why i think the donker is full of [censored] and so i raise again

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please look at the example in SSH starting on p. 163 and explain to me how that one differs from the hand in this thread. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Drunk villian capping every street with 6 high. I hope you see why this fact alters the example drastically. You're welcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how many extra bets are we going to make on average by jamming the flop? If we do have 30% equity here (assuming your estimate is close and that sounds reasonable to me) we would be gaining 2 big bets.

However if not protecting our hand makes us lose an extra 20% of the time (which seems reasonable considering all the overcard out possibilities) and this pot ends up being 20+BBs (which seems extremely likely) then that would cost us 4BBs/hand right there.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

okay babar's angry now.

this isn't a hard concept (unless i totally suck and have just, i dunno, been getting it completely wrong for 3+ years now).

who cares if people 'correctly call the flop?'

gosh this is like one of my larger pet peeves and something that i must approach differently than a lot of people. i don't know why this is seemingly so hard for a lot of people -- so here's the deal - call it the BABAR THEOREM:

build a monster [censored] pot with big hands so the times you don't get sucked out on, you [censored] ship it crucial and win lots of monies. stop trying to play 'pot control' in limit holdem so you lose smaller pots when you get sucked out on.

basically, good/best hand = bet and raise a lot. it's not hard, son.

your opponents are bad and are going to call to draw whether you give them correct odds or not.

i can't understand this unholy fascination with like 'protecting your hand' or 'facing the field with two bets cold' or whatever since it usually involves bungling a hand terribly or missing bets on every street since, as we've established, morons who play live are going to chase anyway.

so just bet and raise your damn hand already.

ugh

grr

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

I didn't see that original limper folded. I can't figure out how to post pokerstove results, but you have like a 40% edge if the blinds defend kind of loosley and a ~35% if they defend tightly.

Honestly if you are going to pass up a 40% or 35% edge in a four way pot, what's the point?

Edit: Also the drunk maniac is gonna keep betting so you'll be able to face the field with two bets cold anyway.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

Raise flop, raise turn.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]


build a monster [censored] pot with big hands so the times you don't get sucked out on, you [censored] ship it crucial and win lots of monies. stop trying to play 'pot control' in limit holdem so you lose smaller pots when you get sucked out on.

basically, good/best hand = bet and raise a lot. it's not hard, son.

your opponents are bad and are going to call to draw whether you give them correct odds or not.

i can't understand this unholy fascination with like 'protecting your hand' or 'facing the field with two bets cold' or whatever since it usually involves bungling a hand terribly or missing bets on every street since, as we've established, morons who play live are going to chase anyway.

so just bet and raise your damn hand already.


[/ QUOTE ]

More of a rant than a therom i think, but qfmft anyway

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

just get the damn money in the pot on the flop/turn and see the showdown. and get a lot of it in there.

this game will have high variance so be ready for a wild ride. dont chicken out and minimize your win.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
okay babar's angry now.

this isn't a hard concept (unless i totally suck and have just, i dunno, been getting it completely wrong for 3+ years now).

who cares if people 'correctly call the flop?'

gosh this is like one of my larger pet peeves and something that i must approach differently than a lot of people. i don't know why this is seemingly so hard for a lot of people -- so here's the deal - call it the BABAR THEOREM:

build a monster [censored] pot with big hands so the times you don't get sucked out on, you [censored] ship it crucial and win lots of monies. stop trying to play 'pot control' in limit holdem so you lose smaller pots when you get sucked out on.

basically, good/best hand = bet and raise a lot. it's not hard, son.

your opponents are bad and are going to call to draw whether you give them correct odds or not.

i can't understand this unholy fascination with like 'protecting your hand' or 'facing the field with two bets cold' or whatever since it usually involves bungling a hand terribly or missing bets on every street since, as we've established, morons who play live are going to chase anyway.

so just bet and raise your damn hand already.

ugh

grr

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

waiting for the turn vs drunk spewy people sucks ass. Though IMO waiting 1 street has it's merits, in situations like these when live players will call with almost anything, you are costing yourself a [censored]-load

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

also lol at "pot control" notions.

when did this start coming up with hands like TT in limit games?

Babar's 100% right here

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
okay babar's angry now.

this isn't a hard concept (unless i totally suck and have just, i dunno, been getting it completely wrong for 3+ years now).

who cares if people 'correctly call the flop?'

gosh this is like one of my larger pet peeves and something that i must approach differently than a lot of people. i don't know why this is seemingly so hard for a lot of people -- so here's the deal - call it the BABAR THEOREM:

build a monster [censored] pot with big hands so the times you don't get sucked out on, you [censored] ship it crucial and win lots of monies. stop trying to play 'pot control' in limit holdem so you lose smaller pots when you get sucked out on.

basically, good/best hand = bet and raise a lot. it's not hard, son.

your opponents are bad and are going to call to draw whether you give them correct odds or not.

i can't understand this unholy fascination with like 'protecting your hand' or 'facing the field with two bets cold' or whatever since it usually involves bungling a hand terribly or missing bets on every street since, as we've established, morons who play live are going to chase anyway.

so just bet and raise your damn hand already.

ugh

grr

[/ QUOTE ]

The BABAR THEOREM:

BigBadBabar hath ordained that when ye possesseth the best hand, ye shalt betteth and raiseth so that all thy pots might verily be large and crucial.

So hath it been written and so shall it henceforth be done.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]

build a monster [censored] pot with big hands so the times you don't get sucked out on, you [censored] ship it crucial and win lots of monies. stop trying to play 'pot control' in limit holdem so you lose smaller pots when you get sucked out on.

basically, good/best hand = bet and raise a lot. it's not hard, son.

your opponents are bad and are going to call to draw whether you give them correct odds or not.

i can't understand this unholy fascination with like 'protecting your hand' or 'facing the field with two bets cold' or whatever since it usually involves bungling a hand terribly or missing bets on every street since, as we've established, morons who play live are going to chase anyway.

so just bet and raise your damn hand already.


[/ QUOTE ]
QFT

also...

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8...bangry3mh7.jpg

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't see that original limper folded. I can't figure out how to post pokerstove results, but you have like a 40% edge if the blinds defend kind of loosley and a ~35% if they defend tightly.

Honestly if you are going to pass up a 40% or 35% edge in a four way pot, what's the point?

Edit: Also the drunk maniac is gonna keep betting so you'll be able to face the field with two bets cold anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when we get it headsup (and obviously this will only happen part of the time) we have an 80% edge.

Really this all comes down the fact that in the end you will usually end up with more money on average when you reduce the field. Of course jamming the flop is +EV. It really baffles me that people can't see that knocking out draws on the turn in this HUGE pot isn't more important than gaining a couple BB of equity on the flop.

And if we bloat the flop then we are not likely to get villians to fold on the turn no matter what.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

Serious question.

Is this an Omaha post?

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
Serious question.

Is this an Omaha post?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean?

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

Hey All!

Haven't been in this forum for almost a year, but have wandered back to check out some things, and came across this very interesting thread. Lots of good discussion. Figured I might throw my 1.5 cents worth in here.

This hand seems to take two different concepts that most people here know and place them into one hand:

1) Sometimes it is better to forego pushing small edges early in a hand if it makes it easier to push large edges later in the hand.

and

2) When you have an extreme maniac at the table, it is often very profitable to do anything you can to get it heads up and take him to showdown with any decent hand.

Let's look at the 2nd concept here. Drunk maniac is in auto-bet/auto-raise mode here. So how do I play against him? I'm trying to isolate him preflop with any good hand. If I can get heads up with him with any pair, any Ace, any good King, maybe even QJ maybe, I'll 3-bet him with it then call him down. If I hit my hand strong enough (top pair or better) I'll go to town with reraising myself.

It's a high variance strategy against someone like this, but highly profitable. If he is in auto-bet/auto-raise mode with any two cards, then any decent holding you have is profitable against him. (Last year, in the $200 Limit event of the WCOOP on PokerStars, I was able to pick up on this from a player 2 seats to my right after only 3 hands into the tournament. By the time this guy busted in like the first 15 minutes, my stack was up by more than 50%, and it was a very big reason I was able to finish in the money)

Now, the only down side of this is that the original poster says "Players at the table have starting going out of their way to isolate him with very aggressive play" So I know that everyone else is doing the same type of thing. So it will be harder to isolate and I have to be more selective. With other people in the hand, I can't go to showdown with King high and expect to win. But on the flip side of that, with other people wanting to call him down lighter, when I get a really good hand, I get much more value for my raising. I know that villain is betting and raising every chance he gets, so I can raise or 3-bet or cap for value when I know that I am way ahead. Depending on the seating arrangement, I can also check-raise and trap the field for value with strong hands or draws, or I can check-raise just the villain to face the field with 2 cold to protect. It's actually a fantastic arrangement having a guy like this is the game for a number of reasons.

So how does that affect this hand here? TT is an absolute monster hand preflop in this situation. I'm happy to get in a large pot preflop in this situation. And after the flop, since no one else is doing anything but calling, an overpair is huge in this spot. Betting and Raising for value is often a good solution the whole way.

Now, let's consider the 1st concept up there. This has already been brought up before by a number of posters here. The concept of "Maybe I should wait until the turn to raise" Here you have a hand that is good, and most likely to be best, but there can possibly be a ton of draws out against you. Collectively, Villains may have half the deck as outs against you. Or they may have very few. Your edge may be huge or it may not even be there. But until some betting happens, you don't really know where you stand. Someone already listed the example from SSHE. This is one concept where I remember that the example given in Gary Carson's "Complete Book of Hold'Em Poker" was actually better for me in explaining all the details. For those who have the book, page 156. In that example, the hero has JJ on a 9-7-3 board with two hearts and it is 4 handed (look familiar to the originals poster's hand!). In his example, there is a flush draw, a straight draw, and a TPTK hand among the opponents. There is a quote that the author says in regards to the JJ hand "Aggressive play by this player in this kind of situation can be very expensive. It's a huge mistake that is frequently made by players who consider themselves to be good players."

So, taking all this into account, let's look at the original poster's hand.

Preflop, TT is huge - it definitely deserves the 3-bet, and calling the cap is easy.

On the flop, Hero has an overpair. Against Drunky's range, you have him crushed. Since no one else reraised preflop, you most likely are ahead here. And people will probably peel for one bet pretty light in this huge pot. So when Drunky bets and first caller folds, it's a no brainer to raise. Your equity is likely high, and you'd like one pair hands like A2 or 87 to make an incorrect fold here (they have the odds to actually cold call your raise, but knowing Drunky will 3-bet it, they may just lay it down, which is a good result for you) When both blinds call, I'm thinking "they cold-called a preflop 3-bet, and are now cold-calling on this flop. They both have 'something', but I'm not sure what that something is." So let's start thinking about what they have. Possible candidates for their hand ranges are:

- pocket pairs below TT that they want to show down against Drunky
- pocket pairs above TT that they are slowplaying until they can checkraise on the big streets
- pocket pairs below TT that flopped a set that they are slowplaying until they can checkraise on the big streets
- one pair hands that they want to peel with or may be good enough to show down
- flush draws, with or without overcards
- straight draws, openended or gutshots, possibly with a J overcard
- overcards that they still want to peel to hit, because they possibly have a backdoor draw to go with it.

There is still a very wide range of hands that they can have. Some are crushed by us, some have us crushed, and some give villains collectively tons of outs against us. This leads us to having a possibly very wide equity range. If there are any reads on the blinds, this can affect the ranges I put them on here. If they are calling stations donkeys, then I'm putting them on weaker hands from what I listed. If they are known to be tricky and play half decently, then I'm actually a little bit more afraid now. And don't forget, Drunky almost always has outs against us here as well. If he doesn't have at least one overcard, then he probably has at least a pair on this board, or at worst a gutshot. There's not even too many possible random hands here that don't have outs against us (I leave listing the possible random hands that don't have outs to take the lead on the turn as an exercise to the reader - I've always wanted to say that!)

So back to the hand, when Drunky 3-bets it, my thought process is this: The blinds cold-called preflop and cold-called on the flop. I won't get them to fold here if I cap it. So against possible hands that they can have, do I have the equity to cap it? I honestly don't know. And my hand is very vulnerable to a whole lot of turn cards with 3 opponents still in. So at this point, I decide to just call, and I'll raise a whole lot of turn cards. I do this for a number of reasons:

- I don't know for sure what my equity is, but I know that it's probably not that large that I'm giving up too much by not pushing it now.
- I know that my equity can change quite drastically on the turn, so I can still push it there if it's gone up
- I know Drunky will bet again on the turn, so I'm positive I can still face the blinds with 2 cold on the turn if I want to.
- I get the chance to see if one of the blinds decides to cap the flop, which helps me narrow their hand ranges a bit more.
- I have found a lot of times that people actually notice the "raise the flop, call a 3-bet, then raise the turn line" and consider it stronger than capping the flop, and therefore will still make an incorrect fold on the turn (but how that is affected by having Drunky in the hand, I'm not exactly sure)

Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that I personally think that raising the flop the first time around is absolutely right. When it comes back to me with 2 cold-callers and a 3-bet, I would personally just call. I'm not sure if it's the right play or not, but I think that it's probably pretty close between calling and capping that I'm comfortable with any equity that I may be giving up by being wrong. And again, I'm only calling the 3-bet because I still plan to raise most turn cards if the turn goes check-check-bet.

As always, take any SixForty post with a grain of salt - I may be completely wrong!

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

Somebody grab the tranquilizer gun QUICK!

Easy big boy!!

PF = your cards are EV+ = BET and KEEP BETTING.
FLOP = Odds are you have the best hand = BET AND KEEP BETTING. So what if people don't fold to cold call? I like to debate lots of things, but I don't see how there is any reason to even question a flop raise here. IMO, its an auto-instant-ask the dealer can I bet any more raise.

If a respectable player 3 bets me, only then slow it down.

Oh, and DON'T bash Omaha players BTW.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
call it the BABAR THEOREM

[/ QUOTE ]

what's with everyone wanting to credit themselves with a "theorem" as of late? not directed at you specifically BBB, but i've seen at least 3 posters in the past week want to pronounce they have a theorem(and it's usually just common sensical strat, nothing new/groundbreaking). seems like that's something appropriate if someone else gives it to you after observing your take, not a self-assigned thing.

and fwiw, in huge pots there is a point that can be reached where the extra value gained by jamming an early street is overshadowed by being able to drag the reward more often as a result of waiting to get aggressive on a later street. call it the James Theorem. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

i will admit that too often i see people wanting to hold off getting aggressive and using pot control or whatever as an excuse, even though they have edges that are way to big to pass up given the situation.

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

james, sarcasm ftw, since it's obv not a new idea at all

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 4/8: Pocket 10\'s curse or blessing-
 

[ QUOTE ]
james, sarcasm ftw, since it's obv not a new idea at all

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm rather dense you must understand.