Things I don\'t get #2
 

Please post hand examples where you raise/fold and let others critique it so the rest of us morons can figure out when to do this.

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

like on the river or turn or what?

an example from the river from recently

I raise a limper in MP w/77, good player calls in bb

A72 w/ one spade
checks to me I bet both call

turn is 9s
bb donks, I raise

river Ts
bb donks, I raise/fold

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

Whenever.

Why is raise/fold the best play here?

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

well the obvious textbook answer is because I think i'm good > 50% of the time when called and < 1/pot when he 3bets (in actuality 0%). not sure exactly what kind of explanation you're looking for beyond that?

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
3 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (3 players) yourface is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">yourface raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6SB, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">yourface bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">yourface bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, yourface calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">yourface raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, yourface folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 12BB

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

Heh, I get that. I can't imagine this being good without a very very strong read though?

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

notice in both cases given you have very real, legitimate hands both for villain to call with and lose and for villain to 3bet with and win. also it helps if your hand is well defined as v v strong (unbluffable).

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Heh, I get that. I can't imagine this being good without a very very strong read though?

[/ QUOTE ]

mine or yourface's? which part do you need a read for the raise or the fold? for mine I've probably played 200+ hrs live with him.

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

tag opens button, sb calls, i call J7 in bb.

flop T52. i check, btn bets, sb folds, i raise/fold.

how about a bet/fold?

tag opens CO. i 3b 66 sb.

flop 559 i c/c, turn 8 i c/c, river T i b/f.

classic raise fold vs. sane lag tag

i open AK utg. btn calls. SB tag coolcalls. bb calls.

flop Ac T 5c checks, i bet, btn folds, sb checkraises, i call.

turn 9d he bets i call.

river 8 he bets, i raise/fold.

he can have any suitd ace here and possibly make a bad pay off w/ JT. when he 3bets i put him on qc jc or a bad 3b with 55

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heh, I get that. I can't imagine this being good without a very very strong read though?

[/ QUOTE ]

mine or yourface's? which part do you need a read for the raise or the fold? for mine I've probably played 200+ hrs live with him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I was talking about your hand. I think you need a very strong read to make that play but you probably had that with all of those hours.

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

really the only read you need for mine is:
- decent (ie doesn't peel flop w/ bdfd then donk the turn with a turned fd). the thing to be concerned about here is the flush which against a decent player is very remote. this is what makes me good &gt;50% when called.
- doesn't spew, ie the river 3bet is real. this is what makes me dead when he 3bets

it really doesn't take too long to get to this point.

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

I never raise/fold made hands. I think I probably miss a few profitable times to do this, but I don't think its a major leak one way or the other.

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

Live 10-20. Villian is old guy who plays ok. Generally understands hand values etc.

Preflop
UTG limps, 2 folds, villain raises, I 3 bet AA, UTG calls, Villain calls

Flop 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG checks, Villain bets, I raise, UTG folds, Villain 3 bets, I call

Turn 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Villain bets, I raise, Villain 3 bets obv, I fold

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

after he 3-bets the flop i just call down hoping he "tricked" me preflop with KK/QQ but mostly expecting to see 99/88. so while i agree that your fold on the turn vs. his 3-bet is good, you shouldn't have given him the chance

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
after he 3-bets the flop i just call down hoping he "tricked" me preflop with KK/QQ but mostly expecting to see 99/88. so while i agree that your fold on the turn vs. his 3-bet is good, you shouldn't have given him the chance

[/ QUOTE ]

raise folding costs the same when Im behind but gets an extra bet out of JJ QQ KK TT. IMO the extra bet I get out of those hands is worth more than giving myself a chance to spike a 2 outer. Also this is live so I expect to never fold the best hand when I get 3 bet.

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

i know i just dont expect a live player to bet/3bet with TT or JJ there.

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

nina is this foxwoods? if so you are never ever ever ever good on the turn and i would call down from the flop 3bet because you are crushed (he probably has 99 and stopped on the flop because he put you on the nuts)

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
nina is this foxwoods? if so you are never ever ever ever good on the turn and i would call down from the flop 3bet because you are crushed (he probably has 99 and stopped on the flop because he put you on the nuts)

[/ QUOTE ]

yes it was. I'll rarely argue that I played a hand correctly, but I really think I took the best course of action in this hand. My turn raise feels like a much better use of 2 bets than call turn and call river, unless he does funky stuff like call turn raise and c/r river.

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please post hand examples where you raise/fold and let others critique it so the rest of us morons can figure out when to do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you're on a tilty, ego-driven bluff.

Re: Things I don\'t get #2
 

nina i see where you're going with this but you also folded a 2 outer in a 13 bb pot