ATo 3-flush board HU
 

Here's one that I've tried to figure out on my own offline, but thought I would get everyone involved.

This was my very first hand at the table, so obv. no reads.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero???

What's the plan? I did some number crunching off line, and we are pretty close to 50% against a 99+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs pfr range. Any wider range and I'm ahead. So I should at least be c/c'ing the flop, but should I donk or c/r? If I c/c, is the best plan to c/r a safe turn?

I've stopped the action here so as not to bias the responses, but I will add more streets after I get home tonight if it's interesting.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

fwiw, this is why we don't call w/ATo in the BB w/o reads. I would fold it against all but the laggiest players.

Seeing as we're here, I am just going to bet out, and probably fold to a raise. The idea being that against a standard unknown, we will usually end up paying off with the worst hand.

Buzz

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

I don't think we should be making the range much wider than 99+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs pfr for a UTG raise at the nitfest 1/2 FR on Stars.

Whilst we may be 50/50 against his range, OOP with this hand on this board, I'm pretty concerned about RIO's.

This line may rarely be correct, but my intuition tells me c/c flop, and donk turn.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

gosh i don't think i've ever folded ato in the bb

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

I'd fold both streets but pf is very close.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

Middle pair on a monotone board where I don't have a club...I pretty much always c/f this hand.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

neurotiq, you need to learn that second pair is a pretty good hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
neurotiq, you need to learn that second pair is a pretty good hand HU [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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FYP

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

I check/call the flop and see what the turn brings. I think my hand is too good at this point to just check/fold and I don't want to raise and potentially fold if he gets aggressive with a big club (or get owned if he bet/calls, raises turn).

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

I would be up for hearing more definition as to why second pair is a pretty good hand. You would take this to showdown?

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would be up for hearing more definition as to why second pair is a pretty good hand. You would take this to showdown?

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i guess you don't play in games where heads-up spots become relevant

in 10c-20c games this isn't much of a mistake because it doesn't happen enough to matter (and showdown pots are large enough to compensate) ... but if you are in a game where this happens more times that not - it's time to put on your thinking cap

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

Aceium,

Most flops do not hit most hands. So when you're heads up, it's likely that your opponent has not hit his hand. The same is true from the villain's point of view -- this flop likely did not hit your hand either. Villain may have raised preflop with a pocket pair or something like AJo, and you could have called with a wide range of hands out of the BB. Thus he will likely think his AJo is still the best hand and bet again. Folding to that bet, when we have middle pair, would be a mistake.

As I said in my original post, my hand is good against 50% of villains range. That was calculated by going through each hand in his range. For example, there are 12 posible AK combinations which I am now ahead of, and 9 possible AQ combinations which I am now behind. Add them all up and I'm 50/50, if you agree with my range. Since the pot will be 5 SB to my 1, I have to at least call a flop bet.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would be up for hearing more definition as to why second pair is a pretty good hand. You would take this to showdown?

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If it's heads up, he only flops a pair 1/3 of the time and could've missed or have an underpair like 99. CRMenace said:

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I did some number crunching off line, and we are pretty close to 50% against a 99+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs pfr range.

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which is another reason I don't want to fold right away. I'm not showdown bound yet on the flop, but I at least want to see a turn where I'll make another decision which could include c/f, c/c, c/r, or b/f depending on what comes off.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

Okay I'll post the turn to keep things going:

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero???

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

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gosh i don't think i've ever folded ato in the bb

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pretty sure it's a minus ev call vs this kind of UTG raiser and a bunch of folders.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

i am usually wrong in these spots, but i say bet the blank on the turn. keeps utg from getting a free card if he hasn't made his flush yet.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
i am usually wrong in these spots, but i say bet the blank on the turn. keeps utg from getting a free card if he hasn't made his flush yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

aggressive player can still raise you ... what then?

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

couldn't i assume he had made his flush then and fold, or would an aggro raise that turn on a draw?

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

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couldn't i assume he had made his flush then and fold, or would/could an aggro raise that turn on a draw?

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that's what i'm saying ... easy

fold equity + OK draw ... with something like a small/mid pocket with suite

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

*Grunch*

In this situation I would check/fold the flop.

He could have made his flush already and you would be drawing virtually dead at this point. If he has not made his flush there is a good chance if he holds any kind of club that he will make it by the river.

With this small of a pot, heads up against a UTG pre-flop raiser its safe to assume he has a fairly strong holding.

IMO you'd be paying the maximum to win the minimum in this situation.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

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couldn't i assume he had made his flush then and fold, or would/could an aggro raise that turn on a draw?

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that's what i'm saying ... easy

fold equity + OK draw ... with something like a small/mid pocket with suite ... plus your hand looks exactly like it is (no one is donking a hand of decent strenth here ... perhaps the nuts donks hoping to get raised)

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

ahh, damn, just that kind of analysis is why i post here. i knew i was wrong. like i said, i just didn't know why. thank you again. should've thought of that.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

In a 3.25BB pot, giving a free card is not anywhere close to a disaster.

Check turn. If villain checks behind, b/f any blank river. If villain bets, c/c any blank river.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

i you give vill this range you should fold preflop

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's the plan? I did some number crunching off line, and we are pretty close to 50% against a 99+, ATs+, AJo+, KQs pfr range.

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I don't like this range. I think it's way to narrow for an UTG raiser in a 7 handed game. I think: 77+, A8s+, ATo, KTs+, KQo, is closer. If u think he had that range u do realize ur ATo belongs in the muck?

Anyway I like a flop CR. We may very well be good, but our hand is vulnerable. We want to make sure the turn gets bet. If the turn is a club I think the hand plays better if we are in the lead. He will have difficulty calling with JJ, AK, AJ, hands we preffered he tossed.
If we are 3-bet I think we must call until another club hits.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

Point,

I think if I bet into this flop, my plan is b/f. I villain is tricky enough to raise his mediocre FD, so be it. I think much more often I'm behind at that point, or at least I'm behind more often than the 2.5BB I'll have to pay to see showdown.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
Point,

I think if I bet into this flop, my plan is b/f. I villain is tricky enough to raise his mediocre FD, so be it. I think much more often I'm behind at that point, or at least I'm behind more often than the 2.5BB I'll have to pay to see showdown.

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I must admit I hate the donk/f line on the flop in general and in this hand even more so. This is a scary board and we donk. How much respect will that donk get? I wouldn't be suprised at all if he raised two red nines. Also there are sooooo many hands he can semi-bluff raise with. B/f in this spot is [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] IMO.

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
neurotiq, you need to learn that second pair is a pretty good hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm willing to learn if you're willing to teach. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I think I do have a tendency to be too fit-or-foldy at times...

Re: ATo 3-flush board HU
 

[ QUOTE ]
I must admit I hate the donk/f line on the flop in general and in this hand even more so. This is a scary board and we donk. How much respect will that donk get? I wouldn't be suprised at all if he raised two red nines. Also there are sooooo many hands he can semi-bluff raise with. B/f in this spot is [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] IMO.

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Sorry Sushi, I meant turn in my post. jmitchell proposed b/f for our turn line and Point Blank said if raised we should call since villain might raise with an FD.

What I was trying to say was that if I donked the turn, I would fold to a raise as jmitchell said.