Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

So in my regular weekly game we found we have a cheat (he was palming chips while raking pots for other people) and he has since been kicked out and not invited back?

So my question is how common is cheating in everyone elses experiences and what steps do you take to guard against it.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I haven't played with him, but apparenlty there is a guy who verbalizes a bet then tries to throw in few chips and palms chips. Not sure if he'll be invited back. Seems as if they like him but have to watch him very closely. I hope I never play with him so I don't have to deal with it. Pretty pathetic, IMHO.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

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So my question is how common is cheating in everyone elses experiences and what steps do you take to guard against it.

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I'm pretty sure it simply does not happen in my games. First and foremost, because our core group is close friends and some family. Second, we play micro stakes - the risk/reward ratio isn't good enough to justify a cheating attempt. And third, I am a performing magician and very versed in false shuffles, palming, false cuts, controls, etc. Being knowledgeable about cheating methods, is a good way to protect yourself and your game. Cheating effectively in a real game, under fire, is a LOT tougher than people realize.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

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Seems as if they like him but have to watch him very closely.

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This seems pretty pathetic to me... on the part of the hosts/enablers

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

define cheating...

we've had people that have come up borderline, and been warned, but as far as common cheating goes, i guess we haven't, or at least caught someone..

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played with him, but apparenlty there is a guy who verbalizes a bet then tries to throw in few chips and palms chips. Not sure if he'll be invited back. Seems as if they like him but have to watch him very closely. I hope I never play with him so I don't have to deal with it. Pretty pathetic, IMHO.

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This is easily prevented if you don't allow players to splash the pot. Explain the rule / guideline to everyone with the caveat that if they do it and the amount they say they put in cannot be immediately identified (this means no counting out the pot and trying to recreate all the betting) then they will need to put out the bet again. Period. No exceptions

AS for palming from pots why does any player but the dealer touch the pot? Or is this happening when the player deals?

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

^I don't see how only the dealer can be the one to touch the pot.

Lets say your playing at a standard 10 man ovalish table. It's a home game, so rotating deal. Dealer is at the end of the table, winner of the pot is at the other end, how does dealer push the pot to him?

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

We play on a 10-man oval with rotating deal, and different people push the pots and the cards to keep things moving. Otherwise, it would take forever.

We do have a rule about splashing, but it's not always obeyed. I'm not the host, but I can see how it's tough to be strict in a relaxed, fun home game. The host tries, and so does everyone else, but people screw up.

As I said, I've never played with this guy, and as far as I know, they haven't invited him back. We'll see.

Pathetic to steal a few dollars here and there from a friendly home game (or from any game or any part of life). People who do must be really desperate or really sick.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

We've got a group of friends / family - not native English speakers, and they sometimes chat in their language at the table. Some people I know take this to be collusion / table coaching, but I don't think they'd be that stupid.

That's as close to cheating as I've seen in a home game.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

The closest thing to cheating I've seen in my group is people not paying their blind or ante. And that's by the end of the night when everybody is drunk (not really important). However, there was one time that a newbie was accused of stealing chips from the pot and other players. He was never invited again.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I have seen my father in law cheat at the grand ma game very now and then. He barely puts his blind out there, and then after he has folded and everyone is concerned with the flop or whatever, he reels it back in. His pushing of pots has come under suspician as well. I've seenanother player at a different game, uses the chips of someone who has folded, but has a blind out there as part of his bet when it is close to him. He stacked his chips on there chips, and pushed it in as if it were his previous call.

All of those cheats could be fixed by haveing a dedicated dealer of course. It is something I am trying to arrange for my games, but no one wants to deal a whole game for nothing, and no one wants to tip, or discount anyone who would want to be dealer. My games are alll two table tourneys.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

At least they are tourneys and not cash. If I saw someone doing that, even in a tourney, relative or not, I'd definitely speak up.

I've heard of a local game with three guys who collude and have signals, etc. Not sure if the cards are marked. I just don't play in it. I think it's 1/2NL.

I think the differences in this thread are home games meaning family and friends and home games meaning at someone's house and not in a casino.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I used to go to this regular home game when I was in highschool. It actually would end up playing pretty big, 25 50c nl wiht between 500 and 1k on the table. One time I was there, but I had to leave shortly, and the guy who ran it told me later that it was the sickest night hes ever seen. He said the swings were ridiculous, and some new kids had close to 300 in front of them. Anyways, he also told me he suspected one of the kids of cheating, but couldnt prove it.

Later that month I was invited to a different home game, but wiht mostly the same kids, except for the guy who ran the previous game. The kid that my friend suspected of cheating was there. Anyways, I watched him for a bit, and then I noticed that his buddy that sat to his right would put an ace on the top of the deck, and then start dealing w/ out asking for a cut. It was so obvious it was stupid. Now, my buddy who ran the other game had told some of these kids about his suspicions also, but they still let him play in this game. So I kinda had a dilemma. In the end, I figured it wasnt my house, and I didnt really know these kids all that well, so I just cashed out and took off. Probably a dick move not saying anything, but if the kids running this game had been forewarned, and they still werent bothering to look for something that obvious, I dunno, I just didnt want the trouble or whatever wouldve come about, so I took off. I'm kinda ashamed of it now. But I was young and not very confident.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

i think that it is gay if people cheat in a home game i mean it is just to have fun and maybe you win some money and u play good and get a little luck

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

how did you catch him doing this?
why is he raking pots for other people?

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played with him, but apparenlty there is a guy who verbalizes a bet then tries to throw in few chips and palms chips. Not sure if he'll be invited back. Seems as if they like him but have to watch him very closely. I hope I never play with him so I don't have to deal with it. Pretty pathetic, IMHO.

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having a rule to not splash the pot will help this. I keep all my players bets in front of them until action is done, then sweep the bets into the middle of the pot. This also helps when raises occur and people know exactly where they are at.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
^I don't see how only the dealer can be the one to touch the pot.

Lets say your playing at a standard 10 man ovalish table. It's a home game, so rotating deal. Dealer is at the end of the table, winner of the pot is at the other end, how does dealer push the pot to him?

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good question I have this 10 man table. Other then the dealer me (the host) is the only one allowed, as I help for the ones who are on the ends of the table. I make my card the A when choosing seats. There is no issue at my other 2 tables as they are the 8 man octagons, the dealer takes control.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I've never seen it. But apparently it happens enough for some thieves to make a living out of cheating home games and then write a book about it.

How to Cheat Your Friends at Poker: The Wisdom of Dickie Richard

I was surfing the web for poker books and found this. I was a little shocked after reading the sample pages. Pretty creepy stuff.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
^I don't see how only the dealer can be the one to touch the pot.

Lets say your playing at a standard 10 man ovalish table. It's a home game, so rotating deal. Dealer is at the end of the table, winner of the pot is at the other end, how does dealer push the pot to him?

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Well in this case, if it was me at the end of the table and I won. I would stand up, reach out and scoop my own pot. Having players deal from the ends sucks and this is why I always have a dedicated dealer or two, in the middle.

If I was to have all players deal here is what I would do. I would have the guys in the middle deal while the guys on the outsides shuffle (two decks in use) for a set amount of time. When time is up we rotate to put the guys at the ends in the middle. They now deal until next rotation. It might be a bit of a pain rotating (but I doubt it) but thats what I would do.

I've seen some very sloppy guys dealing. Never pulling in chips, allowing guys to just toss out chips mixing with other chips, folded cards just left haphazardly around the table, no order to their deal (they'll put turn on one side of flop and river card on the other). And then once the hand is over you have cards and chips spread out all over the table. Totally redicuoulus. Just asking for problems as everyone is trying to move chips and cards. IMO, the host should explain very simple standard dealing practices and then tell everyone to follow them. Pull in chips and preferably stack them, pull in folds, and unless you win the hand, are the dealer or are asked to assist don't touch the pot. Pretty simple.

Another common courtesy I use is to always open my hand and show my palm should I touch another players chips or the pot.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

We had a guy peeking at upcoming cards when he was the dealer, and sometimes setting up the deck when he would collect the cards after his deal. Everyone liked the guy and my guess is it was more of a compulsion / thrill thing than a money thing but regardless he had to go. We were especially careful to be 100% sure what was going on before we threw him out. That he's the father and stepfather of two of our regulars made it even more of an awkward situation.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I read that book because Im a fan of Penn Gilette. Very interesting read- the book doessnt exactly tell you how to do the cheating techniques but more on how to work your way into the games and gain trust and how to leave, etc. It was definitely a good read.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I don't understand why anyone would put up with any of this garbage. If you can't have a full time dealer, at the very least have two decks in play, and when the hand is over, have the same dealer go ahead and shuffle the same deck while the next hand is being dealt. This way it's ready for the cut from the dealer two to his left. Different players then shuffle and cut it, so it would be really hard to set it. If the full time dealer is in on it, just get out

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

Wow. I had know idea that cheating was that common!

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

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That he's the father and stepfather of two of our regulars made it even more of an awkward situation.

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Wow, that's pathetic. Nice example and way to teach his sons the ethos of gambling.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

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I've never seen it. But apparently it happens enough for some thieves to make a living out of cheating home games and then write a book about it.

How to Cheat Your Friends at Poker: The Wisdom of Dickie Richard

I was surfing the web for poker books and found this. I was a little shocked after reading the sample pages. Pretty creepy stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

"'I bet you're good, too' [Todd's wife] says quietly as she hands me my coat. I give her a wink and head out into the night."

lol author of the book is a dbag.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I caught a friend manipulating the deck to deal himself good hands whenever he was on the button. I sat and watched him do it then called him out but it wasn't my house so I couldn't have him kicked out. I haven't talked to him since. A person who would cheat their friends in 10 and 20 dollar buy in cash games in a generally [censored] person.

He was one of those guys that would berate everyones play and whine about bad beats for hours after they happened. Kind of sad I don't play with him anymore because he's so easy to beat. I started destroying him when I realized he only plays for his own ego and to embarrass other players. He slow plays all his monsters so that he can embarrass his opponent when they bet into him and he bets his bluffs hard so that he can embarrass them after winning the pot.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've never seen it. But apparently it happens enough for some thieves to make a living out of cheating home games and then write a book about it.

How to Cheat Your Friends at Poker: The Wisdom of Dickie Richard

I was surfing the web for poker books and found this. I was a little shocked after reading the sample pages. Pretty creepy stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

"'I bet you're good, too' [Todd's wife] says quietly as she hands me my coat. I give her a wink and head out into the night."

lol author of the book is a dbag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definite douchebag. My favorite so far, "I don't sneek little peeks up short skirts-I grab the hips and [censored]"

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

Definite douchebag is dead on.

I am really surprised how common cheating apparently is in home games. I would have guessed 10-20% at most.

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I more suprised at how I've heard about any violence. If I ever cuaght anyone palming chips from my pot, even its only $1, I'd be leaning strongly to coming over the table at him

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

It's very easy for the dealer to sneak a peek at a player's hole cards after they have been mucked at the end of the hand. Usually the dealer can just put them at the bottom of the deck and see them before he starts to shuffle. Most home games, no one cares if the deck is lifted off the table right before shuffling.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

Maybe in your games, but in my games, we're fairly aware of a dealer doing that. If someone doesn't want his cards to be seen, he's going to watch how they get put in the muck. It's also rather obvious to pick up a deck and look at the bottom of it. It's not necessary to see the face of any card in order to shuffle properly.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

When I deal, I've noticed that when people muck by tossing their cards into the muck, the forward edge will often tilt up in the air towards the muck (which is obv in front of the dealer). Cards are flashed that way too.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

At my home cash game, I caught one of the girls (a 26-ish, kinda strange but somewhat attractive brunette) sweeping in dollar chips from the pot back into her stack.
What she would do is muck her cards into the pot, then she'd reach back in for them after the hand was over, supposedly to re-check what she had mucked and comment on whether she should have called or not.
As she would pull her mucked cards back towards her, she would use the cards to flick a chip into her pile.
As a cheating technique, the only advantage to the cheater is that if they get caught, they can say it was an accident. Aside from that, it seems that the movement of the chip would attract a lot of attention.

Someone had previously notified me of some funny hand movements she was making with the chips. I had considered her somewhat of a friend and I assumed that he had misinterpreted her actions (possibly from when she made change from the pot.)

But a few weeks later I saw her "sweep" in a chip. It seemed like such a natural movement that I dismissed it at the time (of course, I corrected the pot). It seemed like an accident, one smooth motion.
That night, though, I couldn't sleep -- I kept mentally replaying what I had saw. I wondered why someone would place downward pressure on the cards if they were recovering them from the muck. Natural or unnatural? I'd wonder. I also recalled the "zip"-like sound the cards made as she swept the cards along the vinyl table cloth (sorry, no felt).

A few weeks later, when she was particularly drugged up, I saw her do it again. This time it was super obvious -- I was 100% sure it was deliberate. In fact, it was a little clumsy: rather than a wristy flicking motion, she made a larger scooping/pulling motion.
I didn't announce it in front of the table, though. Instead, I just corrected the pot and watched her like a hawk, always making sure the pot was out of her reach and bets were pushed forward.

She must have been on some sort of drug aside from alcohol, cuz she seemed giddy. She was relentless: She made at least two more attempts to take back folded blinds or recover an orphaned call. When she would lose a hand, I could see her eye the chips in the pot.

She did other things that same night: I saw her shuffle the cards under the table, and when another player walked up behind her, the player noticed a card on the ground -- it was an Ace (of spades, of course!)
Also, she just happened to get caught shorting the pot a least once that night.

Clearly, this girl is just nuts and probably does this stuff for the thrill or ego protection/inflation. And that night she was definitely on some stimulant, also.

I wanted her to get stacked quickly, which she did. I ushered her out the door before she could sucker someone into loaning her money to reload and continue playing.
I feel bad because she could have been "DUI" driving home, and might have hurt herself or someone else. In fact, some of the players were telling me I shouldn't let her drive home.

But I wanted her to leave before someone else caught her in the act and all hell broke loose. As a host, I was ashamed to have let someone like her into my game. More importantly, I had no idea what people would do if they caught her. We're all nice people, so I'm sure violence or even bad language probably wouldn't come out. But it would just be incredibly awkward. It would poison the friendly and trusting atmosphere of the game.

I obviously never invited that girl again, though I never confronted her with what she did.
I never knowingly let her take a chip, but I'm sure must have taken a few.

About a month later, I finally told my players what had happened. I was reluctant, but people were wondering where she went, and I was actually worried that she knew that I saw her cheating and that she was preparing some sort of pre-emptive action against me. (paranoia?)

Also, since the girl is clearly just a pathetic druggie/nutcase and I saw no need to do her more harm. She could actually be a nice person.

By the way, when I was washing my cards later, I noticed an Ace of spades with a scratch mark on the back. And I recalled how this girl would often peer over her own cards (she held them high) and look around the table at other people's cards. It was a particular gesture that other player's noticed, in retrospect.


Questions for you all:
1- Should I have confronted the cheater immediately? In front of all the players?
2- Is a host obligated to inform his players that there has been a cheater? Keep in mind all the possibly social dynamics that could exist.


On the bright side, I'm sure there's much less cheating than the 40% indicated by the poll -- this thread obviously attracts a disproportionate number of people who have witnessed cheating. If someone started a thread called "PLO homegame" I'm sure a poll would suggest the world is full of Euro-type Omaha addicts.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

The only cheating I have personally seen at a home game was a card mechanic. We suspected that he we cheating a few games before we caught him because he was very good at it. It was a very friendly game and players did not insist on a cut by a player other than the dealer. His main mistake was winning on his deal far more than was statistically possible. He was winning over 80 percent of his deals. We had to watch him very closely to see he was dealing himself from the bottom.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I think in high school and maybe college games cheating is a lot more popular than it is in the older crowd.

I can't recall any games in high school where there weren't any people cheating at all. I can think of maybe 20 people I have played with that I have known cheated and all are either in high school or stopped some time after graduating. The only exception I can think of was someone colluding online for a living (he was a college graduate).

It could just be a maturity thing.

It is very possible that the older crowd just tends to be better at it. Most of the high school crowd I've caught has tried to shuffle with the deck face up. That [censored] doesn't fly with people who have some balls and half a brain.

It is pretty easy to rig the deck while shuffling it so that you don't have to deal from the bottom and almost undetectably. The cards on top being shuffled shield the bottom card being pulled from underneath from being seen. I won't add more details for obvious reasons. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I really do not think there is too much cheating in home games, I\'m a new player to the net and in general, the majority of my play has been \'home\' games and I have never encountered it, I consider myself fairly observant. Perhaps mainly because gettign caught cheating by your own friends is just so devestating.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

I started cheating by stacking the deck in a home game when I was 12. I started playing with a partner when I was 14. I quit cheating due to ethical reasons when I was 17.

At least half of the people in any home poker game you sit in probably have the skills to cheat one way or another. The best way to avoid it is to play with people you trust. Just because people simply have the ability to cheat doesn't mean they will cheat.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

Some cheating I've noticed and suspected in our home game:
Player watching the deck while it's being shuffeled and following the cards. I have a bad habit of shuffling the cards where you can still see them. We use a cut card on the bottom of the deck so I'll cut two or three times more and sometimes add an extra riffle before I deal.
Someone was bringing chips to the game. This was causing our pot to be a couple hundred short at the end of the night. It was always an even number, so the host got suspicious and mentioned it to the players. This hasn't happened again since it was brought up.

I noticed one kid putting his blinds up real close to his stack instead of out in the middle of the table. As the pot would start to build he would simply pick up his blind and put it back into his stack. I confonted him in front of the table about this after I observed him do it a second time. He said it was an accident, of course, but the confrontation slowed him down.
Had a player, when he was dealing, peeking at the cards to come while the players in the hand were acting. One problem with this is that he would do it while his wife was in the hand.

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Had a player, when he was dealing, peeking at the cards to come while the players in the hand were acting.

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I have seen this myself more than once in a home game.

Re: Home poker cheating - how common is it?
 

wow people have to watch who they hang with I guess. I run a home game every week and sometime more than that one day. I know over half of the people that come and they are regulars. I get over 20 people every week. The ones who win alot are myself, my wife, and a buddy or 2. And seeing as though I know my wife just doesn't know how to cheat, I know I don't, my buddy doesn't either. I know my game is good. Although I am trying to recruit a couple people to go into this bar game that is good structure and $40 and gets almost 50 people every time 3 times a week. Want to more work to gether than cheat. So I am more on the lookout for 5 total players that are good enough to go in with. Granted we might chip pass, and stay out of each others way. But never at a home game. That is shady.