QQ in BB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

I may be seen as something of a maniac at the table due to this hand here....misclicked and min raised from SB FWIW. Had a read on the CO, otherwise I probably fold to his shove.




Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $30.20
BB: $25.00
UTG: $26.80
MP: $25.00
CO: $26.50
BTN: $44.25

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $0.50</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $1.75</font>, CO calls $1.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7.00</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">CO raises all-in to $26.50</font>, Hero calls $19.50

Flop: ($54.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Turn: ($54.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($54.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $54.75 ($2.70 Rake)

CO had K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Nines) and LOST (-$26.50)
Hero had Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Nines) and WON (+$25.55)


Anyways, on to the hand in question. Table is fairly loose, but no villain really getting out of line very much.

Original raiser is Taggy, but nothing special running 18/14/2.8 over 400 hands mostly datamined hands.

Villain who 3-bets, appears to be one of the more solid regs at 25nl, while a squeeze may be possible here, against UTG range I think i would be fairly bad, so I gave him credit for a decent hand.

My question, is do we raise/shove/call/fold here, and why would you consider one of these options optimal??

I'll post later streets as we get some responses

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $25.10
Hero (BB): $56.30
UTG: $27.95
CO: $25.00
BTN: $23.65

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $0.85</font>, CO calls $0.85, BTN calls $0.85, <font color="red">SB raises to $4.50</font>, Hero???

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

You can't just call and you can't fold. If you 3-bet him your looking at around $20 which commits you. Only thing I can see you doing is just pushing now.

If he is a solid TAG like you say he will be 3-betting AK/TT+ and that is what is in his range. If you call you give AK a chance to hit for cheap. I still haven't been able to lay QQ down PF and just calling is ridiculous b/c if you call your just saying to yourself, "set value only"

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

Why can't we call?? Not saying you are wrong, but would like to start some discussion on the merits of why calling is goot/bad here.

FWIW, when I see a call in this spot at this level, It is always a big hand...

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

I said why above, you must have posted this while I was editing lol.

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Y

If he is a solid TAG like you say he will be 3-betting AK/TT+ and that is what is in his range. If you call you give AK a chance to hit for cheap. I still haven't been able to lay QQ down PF and just calling is ridiculous b/c if you call your just saying to yourself, "set value only"

[/ QUOTE ]

No, If I choose to call, I am def. not saying set value only...Unless the board comes off very coordinated(or A/K on flop), I have no problem playing this hand Postflop w/Pos on the 3-bettor.

If the villain has AK here, he is calling a shove regardless, w/ all the dead money in the pot.

And I think we can probably take TT out of his range here, my read was JJ+,AQo+ here with this villain.

Any other reasons we can think that calling is bad here?

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

Bump for the morning crowd

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

I'm thinking he is saying JJ+ and mabye AK. It would be out of line to 3bet 1010 and AQ OOP against a raise and caller. Its a tough place, but for me its definately fold or push. If you call your committed and let the original raiser and caller see a flop getting great odds.

Re: QQ in BB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

Pretty sick spot. I agree that it's either raise or fold. I just don't know which one. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking he is saying JJ+ and mabye AK. It would be out of line to 3bet 1010 and AQ OOP against a raise and caller. Its a tough place, but for me its definately fold or push. If you call your committed and let the original raiser and caller see a flop getting great odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree, calling does help to price in original raiser w/ a small PP....what I am more worried about is him shoving, since a flat call opens up the door for us to shut out of the pot.

For ex. Hero Flat calls, UTG Shoves, SB Calls shove...Hero pretty much has to fold here, and we see AK vs AK

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

I faced this exact spot last week, except CO and button had folded. I shoved and lost to KK. One thing we have going is CO and button both flat called, and if we shove they may have one or more of the outs if we are up against AK/AQ.


And....if I am in this spot and I am SB, I am really tempted to squeeze with AQ and take it down pf.

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

How do people feel about a small Raise here, to like 12.50??

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do people feel about a small Raise here, to like 12.50??

[/ QUOTE ]

that is what I was thinking...if we get a call, we have a range of 1010-AK, if we get a push, our range is AK-AA...makes the decision much easier.

Again, I don't know if the donks are over playing their 1010-JJ either so..

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

I pot and call the shove this is often a squeeze with 88-JJ

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

Can anybody expand on the concept of a small raise vs shoving this here.

I think the only think shoving does here, is fold out hands that we dominate, such as AQ/KQ/, TT&amp;JJ.

Basically allows our opponents to play perfectly here, only calling with hands that dominate us, or are +EV long term here with dead money in the pot.

And I still don't know if raising is better than calling here. For us to raise even 12.50, we are pretty much pot commited to any shove, and a call reduces us to playing for set value because villain has AA here like always.

At work now, so I will post my PF action when I get home so we can discuss.

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

If you don't raise, how do we know how strong he is? If he is strong, it could be AQ, AK, 88-JJ, etc..

If you just call, flop comes 10 high, you lead for about 9, are you going to fold to a shove for 15 more? after you have 15 in?

If you raise to ~pot, do you fold to a shove?

Don't think any of this is good. It's a tough spot, but I'm getting my money in

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do people feel about a small Raise here, to like 12.50??

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise to $12.50 you have to call a shove. You are better off just shoving because you might get looked up light. If you reraise and get flat called it's not like you are getting away from it.

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

RAISE

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

Shove, theres so much dead money in the pot that QQ is an easy shove here. (or raise/call shove) Your image just makes this even more a value play

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do people feel about a small Raise here, to like 12.50??

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise to $12.50 you have to call a shove. You are better off just shoving because you might get looked up light. If you reraise and get flat called it's not like you are getting away from it.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have a Raise, two calls, and a Reraise from the SB, I shove here, I am never getting looked up light....

Which may be semantics, because you are right if I raise up to 12, which would be a Pot sized raise, I'm calling a shove here.

Which is why I asked if calling might not be the better line.

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a Raise, two calls, and a Reraise from the SB, I shove here, I am never getting looked up light....

Which may be semantics, because you are right if I raise up to 12, which would be a Pot sized raise, I'm calling a shove here.

Which is why I asked if calling might not be the better line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be so sure that someone doesn't make a hero call with 99 or something.

After thinking about this for awhile it's just best to shove. If you call it will still be difficult to play. With the dead money it's shove for me.

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking he is saying JJ+ and mabye AK. It would be out of line to 3bet 1010 and AQ OOP against a raise and caller. Its a tough place, but for me its definately fold or push. If you call your committed and let the original raiser and caller see a flop getting great odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree that it would be 'out of line' to 3bet TT or AQ OOP versus a raise and a call. These hands are ahead of both of their ranges, yet do not particularly want to see a flop OOP. Raising will usually win the pot outright or get heads up with a good SPR and minimal postflop play where you are positionally disadvantaged.

The same is true of your hand. You are ahead of everyone's ranges, but don't particularly want to see a flop OOP. A push is best.

Re: QQ in SB facing raise and possible squeeze....whats my line??
 

Ok, well consensus here seems to be ship it in, but I cold called thinking that w/pos was the stronger play, and would probably fold out everyone else and play heads up.....[censored]was I wrong, now I have a mess on my hands here with a pretty drawy flop/big pot/and an overpair. What is our line and why??


SB: $25.10
Hero (BB): $56.30
UTG: $27.95
CO: $25.00
BTN: $23.65

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $0.85</font>, CO calls $0.85, BTN calls $0.85, <font color="red">SB raises to $4.50</font>, Hero calls $4.25, UTG folds, CO calls $3.65, BTN calls $3.65

Flop: ($18.85) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red"> Hero??