oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

ok, villain is a 58/10/1 calling station he CRes 1.59 according to PAHUD. This is over 143 hands. Went to SD 30%. Won at SD 63%.

I have to fire 3 times right? The hand is below.... and an example of his calling station nature one below that.

So the basic premise on betting this river would be that he is a calling station, so I can fold to a raise right?

I should prob. have bet $70 on the river... my bad.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $198.00
BB: $571.00
keikiwai (UTG): $326.40
MP: $268.00
CO: $114.70
BTN: $221.80

Preflop: keikiwai is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">keikiwai raises to $8.00</font>, 4 folds, BB calls $6.00

Flop: ($17) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">keikiwai bets $12.00</font>, BB calls $12.00

Turn: ($41) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">keikiwai bets $30.00</font>, BB calls $30.00

River: ($101) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">keikiwai bets $50.00</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $100.00</font>, keikiwai ????



[/ QUOTE ]

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $201.00
BB: $685.00
keikiwai (UTG): $210.40
MP: $271.00
CO: $114.00
BTN: $221.80

Preflop: keikiwai is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">keikiwai raises to $8.00</font>, 4 folds, BB calls $6.00

Flop: ($17) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">keikiwai bets $13.00</font>, BB calls $13.00

Turn: ($43) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">keikiwai bets $30.00</font>, BB calls $30.00

River: ($103) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">keikiwai bets $70.00</font>, BB calls $70.00

Pot Size: $243.00 ($3 Rake)

BB had A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and LOST (-$121.00)
keikiwai had K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Kings) and WON (+$119.00)

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok, villain is a 58/10/1 calling station he CRes 1.59 according to PAHUD. This is over 143 hands. Went to SD 30%. Won at SD 63%.

I have to fire 3 times right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. You fire at a CS when you have a strong hand. You do not have one at any point.

[ QUOTE ]

So the basic premise on betting this river would be that he is a calling station, so I can fold to a raise right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

[ QUOTE ]
I should prob. have bet $70 on the river... my bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Your plan should be to block the river, if you bet at all after getting called twice.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

pineapple,

thanks for the reply and I agree w/ most, but disagree on one important point:

[ QUOTE ]

Nope. You fire at a CS when you have a strong hand. You do not have one at any point.


[/ QUOTE ]

How is 2 pair GK not a good hand when villain is willing to call down w/ mp (hand 2)

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

This hand is good. You have to fold the river.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

I think you played it good, now fold to his minraise.

I like 50 on the river instead of more, too, since I do think he's more likely to pay off with like 99 or something. Also, as it turns out, it leaves you more room to fold.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is good. You have to fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

Hand is played fine, fold river. I always call and they always have me beat somehow [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
pineapple,

thanks for the reply and I agree w/ most, but disagree on one important point:

[ QUOTE ]

Nope. You fire at a CS when you have a strong hand. You do not have one at any point.


[/ QUOTE ]

How is 2 pair GK not a good hand when villain is willing to call down w/ mp (hand 2)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the 2 pair is irrelevant of course when one of them is on the board, it's worse in fact because he could easily have trips. I really don't see a huge amount of relevance from the example hand, really, because in that hand he had TPTK until the river and couldn't expect that the river card helped you.

I've just seen this so many times, cbet a passive CS w air, then you hit on the turn but are by no means sure you are ahead. It's a good way to bleed lots of money. I guess there's no other way to play it once you cbet but my cbet % in this spot is gonna be much less on this type of board vs a CS, when he's not folding any pair, draws, or piece of the board.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

Nothing to add, it's fine on all streets.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

i think if he is a callin station; 99% of the time hes not check raising this river w/o something that beats u.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

I say it was perfect aswell.

As long as you folded.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've just seen this so many times, cbet a passive CS w air, then you hit on the turn but are by no means sure you are ahead. It's a good way to bleed lots of money. I guess there's no other way to play it once you cbet but my cbet % in this spot is gonna be much less on this type of board vs a CS, when he's not folding any pair, draws, or piece of the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's extremely hard for him to hit anything on a 667 board, making a cbet very profitable. Cbetting very dry boards is never going to "bleed lots of money." Those times he calls with 68 / 22 / A9 or whatever and refuses to fold, your cbet makes this an incredibly profitable situation when you hit - whereas you lose nothing but your cbet when he calls and you miss. The times he calls/slowplays with a monster and you hit enough to justifiably value town him are going to be an extremely small segment of all possible scenarios.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

Surprised everyone agrees with the river bet. I woulda checked the river. Maybe I'm missing out on lots of value here?

The river value bet paid off in the example hand, but that was because he flopped TPTK and he didn't put you on an overpair, so he went into CS mode.

In the question hand, the straight draw is about the only draw out there he could be calling down on the flop and turn. Otherwise, he's calling with a made hand or something lame like AK.

most of these hands beat you on the river, and he's of course not going to pay you with a busted straight draw, so I'd check it down.

yeah, maybe he'd call down with A7 or mid pocket pair, but didn't he just get burned that way? Seems unlikely. Thoughts?

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand is good. You have to fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

I would check the River.

The example hand was a lot less scary board for A8 than this one is for something like A7/88-JJ.
Stations put us on AK/AQ as an excuse to call with an underpair, but even they fold if the board has enough paint on it.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

checking this river is lighting money on fire

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

i bet the river. then i fold to the min-raise. a question for pineapple: in ur first post i think u said you would bet the river to block? aren't we in position?

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
checking this river is lighting money on fire

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting this river is lighting money on fire.

No draws hit so if he was on a draw he can't call. Only hand that would be calling here is a K in which case it's a split pot as your kicker doesnt play so the river bet has no value here.

There is a big difference in the 2 hands posted. This hand there is a K &amp; Q on the board so it's doubtfull that he will call this without at least a K.

In the hand where he called down MP there were no big cards scare on the board,, the highest card was a 10 and a lot of fish automaticly put you on AK when you raise preflop.

I check this river behind

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

Checking this river is so bad. I routinely get called by amazing hands like 88 in spots like this, and even on some 'scarier' boards.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking this river is so bad. I routinely get called by amazing hands like 88 in spots like this, and even on some 'scarier' boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checking this river is so bad. I routinely get called by amazing hands like 88 in spots like this, and even on some 'scarier' boards

[/ QUOTE ]

There is not a lot of "scarier" boards out there vs a PFR.

You can substitute an A for the K or Q and it's not a whole lot scarier.

I highly doubt you are "routinely" getting called by 88 on boards like this, occasionally it will happen but "routinely" no way.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

U make money from that type of fish by value betting hard ur good hands and getting free cards due to his pasivness,not by bluffing...
Therefore i like your line a lot on turn and river but disagree on the flop especially on that type of flop unless u think u r valuebetting your K high.
As played i would fold most of the time vs anyone unless ihave some kind of read that would make me think he is capable of such bluffs.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
but disagree on the flop especially on that type of flop unless u think u r valuebetting your K high.


[/ QUOTE ]

This flop is a standard cont bet 100% of the time for me and should be for anybody, it's very unlikely that the flop hit him here, you have posiiton and the initiative.

The flop bet is super duper standard here, you don't not bet this flop because you wiffed.

This is easily one of the best boards you could have asked for when you wiff to cont bet on.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

Checking the river is awful, unless you are such a nit that you never get called by worse. btw, you shouldnt be that much of a nit.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but disagree on the flop especially on that type of flop unless u think u r valuebetting your K high.


[/ QUOTE ]

This flop is a standard cont bet 100% of the time for me and should be for anybody, it's very unlikely that the flop hit him here, you have posiiton and the initiative.

The flop bet is super duper standard here, you don't not bet this flop because you wiffed.

This is easily one of the best boards you could have asked for when you wiff to cont bet on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points ,good arguments but it seems like i am getting call so much on that type of flop against that type of fishs that i m not sure what to think anymore.What does a CB achieve if we assume we r getting call 80% of the time on that spot??
To them A high is the nuts or if they have overcards they r drawing to 2 pair...

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

so you guys don't bet river with AJ?

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Checking this river is so bad. I routinely get called by amazing hands like 88 in spots like this, and even on some 'scarier' boards

[/ QUOTE ]

There is not a lot of "scarier" boards out there vs a PFR.

You can substitute an A for the K or Q and it's not a whole lot scarier.

I highly doubt you are "routinely" getting called by 88 on boards like this, occasionally it will happen but "routinely" no way.

[/ QUOTE ]

villain is a fish you [censored] idiot.

op, nh, now fold.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok, villain is a 58/10/1 calling station he CRes 1.59 according to PAHUD. This is over 143 hands. Went to SD 30%. Won at SD 63%.

I have to fire 3 times right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. You fire at a CS when you have a strong hand. You do not have one at any point.

[ QUOTE ]

So the basic premise on betting this river would be that he is a calling station, so I can fold to a raise right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

[ QUOTE ]
I should prob. have bet $70 on the river... my bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Your plan should be to block the river, if you bet at all after getting called twice.

[/ QUOTE ]

flop c-bet can go either way. turn you definitely do have a strong hand and you are like miles ahead of his range and you HAVE to bet every street as long as he's just calling. This is like the 2nd time ive seen you advocate a blocking bet from in position, which is of course impossible. Definitely bet closer to $70 on the river and fold to the raise. WTF @ checking here? Since when does someone c/c you twice and checking the river indicate a hand &gt;TP?

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

so you guys river bet JJ for value? river bet TT for value?

While river bet isn't bad, I don't think its that clear that checking isn't close in EV.

This range merging thing works out well when villain is thinking player and figures out that river bet looks like monster or bluff and calls you down light with 88 but against said villain I think often the reaction is well there is 2 overs that likely hit my opponent and I don't want to call.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

amoeba,
No I don't bet those hands for value. AQ I would, and all Kx hands. We are going to be bluffing enough that we don't need to really merge our range, just valuebet our top hands in this spot.

Re: oh good, i get min check raised on the river
 

I don't mind the value bet vs this drooler. He'll call down w/ sooo many hands that u beat (and there are a lot of those).
As for the c/minraise, these always have me beat cuz I always call them and lose [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].


So fold.