200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

200-400 Mixed Game

Ace to 5 TD up to bat.

I am in the bb with A, 2, 3, rag, rag.

A solid player raises and the button cold calls (O'Neal for those who know).

A little background info on the solid player, I had played with him a few days and hadn't seen him get out of line too many times if any at all. Also when he is running bad he seems to play cautiously, not value raising or value betting enough. At the time he was running slightly bad.

1st Draw:

I draw 2, solid player draws 1 and O'Neal draws 2.

Gin!!! I pull a 5 and 7.

I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds.

2nd Draw:

I stand pat and solid player stands PAT!!!

WTF!!!

So I check, solid player bets 400 and I call.

3rd Draw:

I break the 7 and he stands pat.

I draw a banana.

I check and he checks and I feel sick, he tables 7642A.

Is this just a standard case of position winning him the pot or my stupidity?

Opinions seemed to vary at the table.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

If his pat range doesn't include hands you beat then I don't think you have odds to call and break (remember your 6 is often not an out there, and he has to have at least one of your cards and more likely both). So you must fold.
If it does include even one (7542A) you're better off standing, and you have odds to call and stand (and call on the river) if he includes a second hand you beat (7543A). You also have equity from being tied, you might not even need him to have two hands you can beat. Your effective odds are 9:2, and you can win 2.5/9.

I am not an expert, caveat emptor.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

jkinetic,

When he coldcalls rather than 4 betting the flop (with a player still to act behind him) he is showing big weakness or super huge strength. The play is to bet/fold the turn and if he just calls confidently value bet the river. He cannot have a 65 here, he either is a complete pussy with 74 or you are good if he doesn't pop you on the turn.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

I didn't work through the math in detail, but my intuition would be to agree with rchandra--- if you are getting the right odds to draw then you are probably better off patting. If you can't feel confident calling down then folding is preferable.

Let's see: you are beaten by 5432A, 6xxxx (5 hands), 7432A, tied with 7532A, but ahead of 7542A, 7543A, 75432. So even if you eliminate 76's, you are about 3.5/11 to be winning (2.1 to 1 odds). Drawing you are hoping to catch a 4 or a 6 (but sometimes the 6 is no good) so call it 4 or 5 live outs in 40 unknowns, odds of 9:1 or 8:1.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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200-400 Mixed Game

Ace to 5 TD up to bat.

I am in the bb with A, 2, 3, rag, rag.

A solid player raises and the button cold calls (O'Neal for those who know).

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1300 in the pot

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A little background info on the solid player, I had played with him a few days and hadn't seen him get out of line too many times if any at all. Also when he is running bad he seems to play cautiously, not value raising or value betting enough. At the time he was running slightly bad.

1st Draw:

I draw 2, solid player draws 1 and O'Neal draws 2.

Gin!!! I pull a 5 and 7.

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Nice draw, but not really gin--especially from up front, as we soon shall see...

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I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds.

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2900 in pot

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2nd Draw:

I stand pat and solid player stands PAT!!!

WTF!!!

So I check, solid player bets 400 and I call.

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His bet makes it 3300, so you're getting a little over 8:1.

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3rd Draw:

I break the 7 and he stands pat.

I draw a banana.

I check and he checks and I feel sick, he tables 7642A.

Is this just a standard case of position winning him the pot or my stupidity?

Opinions seemed to vary at the table.

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His position won the pot. I don't think you're stupid. But...

1. He drew to a 6 and played a 7. (He could have drawn to a 7 and hit a 6, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt.)

2. He raised btf. Why did he raise? To build a pot? To buy the button? I think the fact that O'neal was on the button has a lot to do with this, but I have to be honest and tell you that I don't know who O'neal is, but I bet SP knew and it affected his raise.

There are 15 hands that are 1-card draws to a 6 or better, and 2/3 of them have a 6 in them. If his plan is, indeed, to stand on a 7 or better, a 7 represents 1/3 of his hits, so he ends up with a 76xxx 2/3*1/3 = 2/9 of the time.

Could you have rapped pat on the end with your 75xxx on the end getting 8:1 on a hand you were 2:9 to beat? Maybe, but first you have to tell us...

What was your plan before the first draw? (What were you going to stand on/draw to in various situations? What were you going to do with o'neal?)

When SP drew one, what range did you put him on?

What did you think SP needed to hit on his first draw in order for him to stand pat?

Who is O'neal?

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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Who is O'neal?

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He is the guy in TT's avatar (spl?).

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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Who is O'neal?

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He is the guy in TT's avatar (spl?).

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OK, thx

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds.

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Isn't it obvious what O'Niel was holding? I like his play.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

I never see anyone slowplay/trap in 2-7. People also tend to play much more aggressively on small bet rounds so I'd expect him to 4bet everything that beats you and some that you beat here.

I wish I could say more but I'm really not familiar with how powerful your hand actually is here. It looks really good to me but I know it's a lot easier to make a good hand in A-5 than in 2-7 so perhaps your hand is much more marginal than I think.

I think I would just bet after you both pat and then check the river (or bet? this is another spot where I'm not sure how good your hand is and how good it needs to be to value bet). However it is possible that this idea is just being results oriented.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds.

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Isn't it obvious what O'Niel was holding? I like his play.

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Your mancrush needs to end. If a guy is great 10% of the time and a fish 90% of the time, then he is a fish.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds.

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Isn't it obvious what O'Niel was holding? I like his play.

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Your mancrush needs to end. If a guy is great 10% of the time and a fish 90% of the time, then he is a fish.

-DeathDonkey

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I play a made hand in his range the same, its unbreakable, time to fold. I disagree with the button cold call, but that seems to be prevalent with other good thinkers who mostly play live for some odd reason in 2-7 and Badugi. Post draw even YOU would play it the same.

Its no secret that my old-man crush actually ends when he is in a full ring cash game. He is brilliant (when he is awake) in a low tourny, and in HU low games but thats about it from what I am aware of.

No denying his tourny credits are phenomenal for a cash game player, the list is pages long.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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I check, solid player bets, O'Neal raises, which means absolutely nothing usually, I 3 bet and solid player cold calls, O'Neal folds.

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Isn't it obvious what O'Niel was holding? I like his play.

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Your mancrush needs to end. If a guy is great 10% of the time and a fish 90% of the time, then he is a fish.

-DeathDonkey

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This is called the Matusow Syndrome.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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I wish I could say more but I'm really not familiar with how powerful your hand actually is here. It looks really good to me but I know it's a lot easier to make a good hand in A-5 than in 2-7 so perhaps your hand is much more marginal than I think.

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Well (thinking out loud), 75321 is #8. Equivalent to 86532 in 2-7. In theory, there are the same number of ways to draw any given hand in either game. You can make any hand by catching one card to one of four different four card hands, or two specific cards to one of ten different three card hands. But relative to the numerical rankings, there are more rough draws in 2-7, because of straight possibilities - no one is making 86543 by drawing to 6543. but I don't think that comes into play too much for the top ten or so hands for 1-card draws b/c every 2-7 hand up to 86543 has all clean 4 card draws. But for two card draws it matter a lot - All the hands with 6s will be drawn a little less often, since some of those 862 type hands will be pitched predraw, and three card straight draws like 345 also don't make it to made hands i.e. it seems like wheel cards are closer to equivalent in A-5 than they are in 2-7, the 2 is more important than the A, and there's no A-5 equivalent of the 7.

so maybe 75321 is the equivalent of like #10, a perfect 75 ~ a perfect 87?

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

You guys who are debating the turn call or debating the break are missing the fact that the turn check is where this whole hand went wrong.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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You guys who are debating the turn call or debating the break are missing the fact that the turn check is where this whole hand went wrong.

-DeathDonkey

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I agree with this... I gotta say that if you are going to check this spot you gotta do it with the intention of calling down without breaking. So often he will bet the turn and showdown free on river with tons of hands you beat.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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You guys who are debating the turn call or debating the break are missing the fact that the turn check is where this whole hand went wrong.

-DeathDonkey

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DD seems completely right in this thread.

Hero's mistake is forgivable because villain played his hand weird/bad (imo anyway).

But I find the incidental point about O'Neal's cold-call interesting.

In my experience good online players pretty much always 3-bet or fold outside the blinds predraw, but virtually all live players cold-call more often than not with 3-card hands. (And this at high limits, fwiw.)

I don't know... does anyone take the live players' side on this question?

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

DD,

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You guys who are debating the turn call or debating the break are missing the fact that the turn check is where this whole hand went wrong.


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I agree with you on this 100%, I should have at least bet out on the turn and evaluate from there, but I will give you my thinking on this.

This was strictly a live read, on the second draw when I stood pat, he stood pat and then I shot him a glance like you are staying pat and he shot me back this look like, "Yeah muthaphucka I'm staying pat!"

So then I checked and he put in his chips with complete confidence. So now I am thinking, he has a monster or 7 perfect, no way he is snowing, completely out of the question. So I decide to break and the rest is history.

But you are right, I should have put the pressure on him instead of letting him take the lead on the turn, I showed weakness and he read me for weakness which I really wasn't. He probably read me for a smooth 8.

I have only played big draw games at Commerce and they play so fast and loose. So when I was playing in LV, it blew my mind the hands they were checking down and not value betting. For instance, an 86 at Commerce in deuce is check raising the river, in LV the person with a pat 86 is checking the river to the drawers.

So my read on this guy was that he was solid and not f-ing around here.

After the hand, I knew I messed up the turn, but then a player I really respect from a theoretical standpoint told me he thought I played the hand right and that the other player played the hand wrong.

His thinking was that I call a raise from the bb and then draw 2, so pretty obvious I have 3 cards 5 or below, probably pretty darn close to ABC.

So when I 3 bet out of position I am showing some serious strength, not likely I am doing this with an 8, so probably a 7 or better and he can't beat too many 7's. So his final conclusion was that the other player should have been the one to break.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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I showed weakness and he read me for weakness which I really wasn't. He probably read me for a smooth 8.

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Yeah I think this is really important and if you would have fully considered it at the time you would realize this is why you can't break. I guess we are just disagreeing a bit on how good a 75 is here, I'd say pretty good and you are saying its pretty weak and almost a bluff catcher.

I totally agree with you about Commerce vs Vegas draw games.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

I will say this about O'Neal(sp?), I have only played with him a handfull of times and he is truly a character.

I won't comment about the fishiness of other players, I think it is rude, if you are a true hustler you wouldn't say these things out loud, which is the one thing I don't like about these yg's today who are quick to talk shiiite. (E.G.) Crazy Mike was making a complete ass of himself at the other table playing 1/2 holdem. I had no idea who he was but he made it a point to let the entire room know who he was.

Now for TT, a funny O'Neal story:

2 years ago during the Bellagio tourney, I am playing in a 25/50 game that is half NL holdem and PLO.

We were playing NL holdem, O'Neal raises in the cutoff and Sam Grizzle reraises on the button and O'Neal quickly goes allin. Sam says, "Damn you O'Neal you really got dem aces!!!" O'Neal is as still as a statue, Sam says "If you got dem aces then you got me, I call."

The dealer deals the flop and I see the K right in the door. Turn and river are dealt out and Sam tables the wired Kings. O'Neal looks at his aces, looks at the board and then stands up disgruntled, just as he is standing up he bumps into a cocktail waitress with a tray full of drinks and he gets hot coffee spilled all over him. He made the weirdest scream that I had ever heard, I guess because he is hard of hearing.

It was quite the scene.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

Nice thread. Generally, it would be awesome if those of you who play in the big live mixed games would post more hands.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

Ok 2 hands, one for the mancrush and one against, not so sure which was madness or pure brillance, I'll let you be the judge.

A to 5 TD, he is up against 2 very solid players, makes a 9 on the first draw out of position, check raises and fades the rest of the hand to win.

9 perfect you ask? Yes, very perfect, 976..

Second hand, Stud8:

O'Neal in early position raises with a 9 showing on 3rd, with a ton of low cards behind him and an Ace that has yet to act that is a super solid player, most would classify him as your typical LV nit.

The field folds and now the Ace up reraises, for the purpose of this post we will call him LV nit. O'Neal just calls.

O'Neal catches an 8 on 4th and LV nit catches a baby. LV nit bets and O'Neal raises!!! LV nit just calls. Now I am thinking O'Neal either caught 9's and 8's or is rolled up.

On 5th and 6th no really important cards come and on 7th LV nit checks and O'Neal bets with no FEAR. LV nit thinks and then calls.

As an observer of the hand, I am thinking O'Neal must have filled or has rolled up 9's.

He tables 9's and 8's and I am thinking he is either getting scooped or only half, I mean the LV nit called, he has to have Aces up or a low, he has to???

LV nit looks at his board, looks at O'Neal's 9's and 8's and mucks his hand, no f-ing way!!!

Owned, I mean like Magic Don Juan and some crack whore.

LV nit left the table, I don't think because he was mad, but more because he was embarrassed.

Bonus hand:

Stud high, some low brings it in, 2 dead Kings fold and O'Neal with 2 players behind him plus the bring in raises with a King door card!!!

I had a 9 door with an Ace and 7 buried, the guy to my right had a Ten up.

The guy to my right reraises, damn, I wanted to do that, so I fold and O'Neal insta mucked.

I told the guy to my right that I was going to do that, and he said he had Ace high too and knew it was the nuts because Ace high is always the nuts against O'Neal.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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Ok 2 hands, one for the mancrush and one against, not so sure which was madness or pure brillance, I'll let you be the judge.

A to 5 TD, he is up against 2 very solid players, makes a 9 on the first draw out of position, check raises and fades the rest of the hand to win.

9 perfect you ask? Yes, very perfect, 976..


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Not shocking, this is classic O'Neil forgetting which game he is playing.

The S8 had is odd as described, but if the whole table is filled with low cards then raising with 9's w/ and A buried isn't horrible - I'll leave that in the you had to be there folder, sounds like there is more to the hand than just 3rd & 4th street.

As for the stud hand - O'Neil shouldn't play board games multi-way - thats no secret.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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if the whole table is filled with low cards then raising with 9's w/ and A buried isn't horrible

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Um strongly disagree. Don't let blumpkin see this or he will tilt. (also its clear from the story he had (89)9)

-DeathDonkey

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

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if the whole table is filled with low cards then raising with 9's w/ and A buried isn't horrible

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Um strongly disagree. Don't let blumpkin see this or he will tilt. (also its clear from the story he had (89)9)

-DeathDonkey

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I was saying raising with (A9)9 isn't horrible with a table of 7 low cards out there (its situation specific, the table has to be tight and observant, and you have to be playing few hands with a great image), the distribution is likely that a low wont come often.

I agree that (98)9 is a WTF, you had to be there. Sorry if I didn't communicate that well.

Re: 200-400 Ace to Cinco TD
 

So does everyone here know eachother, do people know who I am yet I don't know who you are, etc. I'm andy if we've played in the 40 game at the bellagio.