100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until turn
 

Good 100/200 game online with 6 players. I have been winning and showing down big hands. Villain is probably a losing player and is not overly aggressive, but is also not a complete moron, just not too good or sophisticated, my type of opponent.

Folded to me, I raise on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villain calls in the sb, BB folds.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (450) He checks, I bet, He checkraises, I call.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (850) He bets, I raise, He 3bets, I call.

River: Q:hearts: (2050) He bets, I call.

Your Thoughts? I am interested particularly in villains flop checkraising range, which based on board could include all sorts of combo draws. Is calling the checkraise and raising a safe turn card or card that makes me the nut low a standard play against an average villain? Thanks

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]2handed - I think you overplayed your aces on the turn.[ QUOTE ]
I am interested particularly in villains flop checkraising range

[/ QUOTE ]Reasonable. If I wanted to do that I'd just call him down.

Given your description of Villain, I'd tentatively put him on a flopped set for the flop check-raise.

Buzz

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

I'd 3-bet him on the flop as a default, since you're often drawing to the same low (though he probably has backup) and your hi is thus often good. If he caps the flop, I'd probably still raise the turn as you did, but I'd be happier if he called and then c/r'd the turn, so that 2 bets went in on that street as opposed to 3). When he doesn't slow down on the turn, the Villain you described has at least Qs up, and usually a set. Think of it this way: he knows you'll never fold with the lo draw out, so his c/r is for value. What does he have that doesn't beat AA? Sometimes he has 2 flush draws and a low draw, I guess.

It's hard to quibble with a call on the end getting 11:1, but you really can't beat anything on the river after a not too agg villain 3-bets you on that turn (except the aforementioned double flush draw).

His c/r'ing range for the flop IMO is A4xx, 456x, sets, and that's pretty much it (Oh fine--AQ53 as well). If he super-sucks, then some bare 2 pair or a set with no low draw is in there.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

Buzz,
These shorthanded higher stakes online games probably play in a way you are not accustomed to but the standard play is definitely to 3bet the flop here. The average level of aggression is very high and bluffs are very common. People will play the board texture against you and this board really does not favor my raising range. Even weaker and less aggressive opponents are checkraising a fair portion of the time OOP. Sure I am going to get blasted by a set some of the time, but my hand is pretty strong and due to my image it looks like my low got counterfeited so that would open up his checkraising range to two pair type hands with a low draw. I wouldn't exclude a hand like 2346 unsuited from this guys range. Nonetheless, you may well be right about me overplaying my hand here, but I would like to hear your reasoning and not just be given a one sentence chiding.

I think the difficulty of raising the turn as I did is that I am subjected to a 3 bet while I am behind. Against an opponent who I have a better read on as being super aggressive this play is less questionable and spewy since he will much less of the time have a set, but I still think it is an interesting spot even if it is read dependant.

Cero,
I pretty much agree with your analysis, but I think both you and buzz might have been influenced by the fact I got threebet on the turn, and I wish now that I had ended this post on the hand at my raising and done the post in two parts.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

did you consider 3 betting the flop and bluffing a club turn/river?

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
did you consider 3 betting the flop and bluffing a club turn/river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pointless IMO because at these stakes people won't fold anything that beats AA after the pot gets this big.

2handed, I may've been influenced by the results, as you say, but my point was that you should be trying to get 1 or 2 bets into the pot vs. a not-very-agg opponent, as opposed to the 3 or 4 you'd shoot for against a more typical overplayer/bluffer.

Also, I've played against a lot of these guys, as well, so if you post names (if it's not too damning/embarrassing), I'd be interested and could offer more feedback.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nonetheless, you may well be right about me overplaying my hand here, but I would like to hear your reasoning and not just be given a one sentence chiding.

[/ QUOTE ]2handed - Please accept my humble apology for that. I did not intend it to be chiding, but I can see how you would take it that way (because "a one sentence chiding" is exactly what it looks like).

Sorry.

I simply thought over-playing aces might be a possible overall flaw in your game. I think over-playing aces is a common mistake many Omaha-8 players make (especially those who have a successful background playing Texas hold 'em).

In this particular situation, given your description of Villain, when Villain check-raises you after this particular
2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] flop, I would tentatively put Villain on a flopped set, very possibly queens. There are also various other possibilities.

But that check-raise from the player you describe, assuming your description is correct, is like a gong signaling (screaming) "set" to me. And if Villain has flopped a set, you are way, way behind with your bare pare of aces and counterfeitable low draw.

I don't know if Villan has flopped a set or not, but I'd play as though he very well might have.

Buzz

(Sorry again, for the chiding. I honestly didn't mean it that way).

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until turn
 

Do people more frequently check-raise the massive draw (a456 w/nut clubs or some lesser variation) or a set at sh 100/200?
Am I the only one not crazy about check-raising either, from villain's perspective? unless he puts u on aa and he's bluffing? Do people go to war on turn with just massive draw?

id be interested in getting general assessments of what % of the time villain has a) massive draw b) weak draw/air c) quality made hand in this particular situation at this limit

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

Buzz, don't worry about it, I accept your apology and I really was not insulted. Although I could always improve my play with aces, particularly as part of high only hand, I do think I have a good grasp of the fundamentals of this form of poker.

I also think based on my read you and Cero are right on about not giving this player too much action with one pair. But I would like to know if you think against other players who are wilder and more aggressive if this a viable line to take, and how wild said player would need to be before I tried this play.

Results: He had QQ87, after I this showdown I definitely changed my strategy against him. I think the memory of this play and following plays he made may have influenced my read of him, which at the time really was undeveloped. How does my play look against an unknown?
Sorry I don't really remember his name cero, something 'nok' if I see him later I will recognize it.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do people more frequently check-raise the massive draw (a456 w/nut clubs or some lesser variation) or a set at sh 100/200?
Am I the only one not crazy about check-raising either, from villain's perspective? unless he puts u on aa and he's bluffing? Do people go to war on turn with just massive draw?

id be interested in getting general assessments of what % of the time villain has a) massive draw b) weak draw/air c) quality made hand in this particular situation at this limit

[/ QUOTE ]

They c/r both pretty consistently, and only the better players understand that it's often not a good idea to c/r with just a set in a 3-bet (pre) pot when 2 wheel cards and a 2-flush flop. However, note that villain didn't have just a set here; he had a bad low draw that could become good if an Ace or 4 were to fall--i'd like his play less on a Q45 flop, where there's less chance of the pre-flop raiser getting counterfeited if he has his most common holding: A2wx, where x is another card working well with the hand. On the 23Q flop, there's a fair chance of the pfr already having paired one of his low cards (thus being somewhat close to a counterfeit low situation). In re: to your second question, it's a common weakness for players at 1/2 to not slow down on the turn with a draw. The good players IMO just do it often enough to keep you off balance.

I think this overplaying by bad players stems from most of them coming from high-limit Holdem, where a huge draw is rare enough that when you're jamming the turn, you usually have the big hand, not the draw, and of course your opponents usually have less overall, so it's more correct to always jam there.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does my play look against an unknown?

[/ QUOTE ]2handed - Really hard to say. I tend to put unknown players in the "maybe knows what he's doing" category rather that the "thinks he's playing Texas hold 'em" category. They may not stay in that category, but they start there.

Although perhaps not as loudly, the gong would still peal "possible flopped set" (and if so, probably queens) when an unknown check-raised this flop.

(I like Cero's replies in this thread).

Buzz

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

A few more questions on this hand assuming it is played against an unknown:

If I do 3bet the flop whats my plan if villain calls and the same turn card comes?
If I 3bet flop and he caps and then leads the turn are you raising a 6 7 8?
What if it is a club?
Try to forget results of actual hand if possible.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
A few more questions on this hand assuming it is played against an unknown: If I do 3bet the flop whats my plan if villain calls and the same turn card comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]Hi 2handed - Villain check raised your flop bet!

In so doing, he's signaling that he has flopped a set of queens. Does he really have the queens or not? I don't know. Maybe he just has a set of deuces or treys. Either way your pair of aces sucks for high (unless he's bluffing). You'll make the nut low 504/990 and you'll get counterfeited 210/990. (The other 276/990, nobody makes low because low will be impossible).

Why would you re-raise?

Yet if you do re-raise, you somehow will generally make play more difficult for your opponent. [ QUOTE ]
If I do 3bet the flop whats my plan if villain calls and the same turn card comes?

[/ QUOTE ]I assume that if Villain really has the set of queens, Villain will probably cap if you make it three bets on the flop and then bet the turn.

But maybe Villain will just call, greedily hoping that you bet again on the turn and he will get in an amazing second check-raise. In that case, if Villain makes the mistake of checking after the turn, it seems better to take the free card, hoping for the best on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
If I 3bet flop and he caps and then leads the turn are you raising a 6 7 8?
What if it is a club?

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting question. If it's a six or an eight, a straight is already possible. And if the turn is a club, a club flush is already possible. Can you knock Villain off a set with a raise? I don't know. With a six or eight you'll have the nut low, so that the risk seems to be to get counterfeited on the river for low (in which case you'll still have a live ace or four for low) or to get quartered for low by Villain. Against that is the chance you'll blow Villain away with the raise or catch an ace on the river for trip aces.

After the flop enables a straight or flush a raise would probably at least scare the beejeebers out of Villain and certainly would put Villain under a lot of pressure (assuming he doesn't have that covered). Interesting idea. But first you have to get a six, eight, or club on the turn (and then he has to not have that covered).

I think you can make that sort of play work better for you in a pot limit or no-limit game than in a limit game. But it's an interesting idea.

Buzz

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until turn
 

This is a limit 08 hand right? The pot numbers in parenthesis make it appear that way...

Assuming it is limit, I think OP's initial analysis is correct, as is the way he played the hand. The hand ranges everyone is putting the villain on are way way too tight.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

[ QUOTE ]
The hand ranges everyone is putting the villain on are way way too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Joe - I think you're misunderstanding what I wrote.

I wrote:[ QUOTE ]
Villain check raised your flop bet!

In so doing, he's signaling that he has flopped a set of queens. Does he really have the queens or not? I don't know. Maybe he just has a set of deuces or treys. Either way your pair of aces sucks for high (unless he's bluffing).

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not saying Villain has flopped a set of queens. To the contrary, I'm specifically stating that I don't know if he has flopped a set of queens or not.

Let me try to correct any misunderstanding to which I might have somehow have led you. That is not putting Villain on a set of queens (which would be a too tight range of cards). However, I would be very wary of the possibility or a set or at least two pairs - both of which figure to usually beat Hero's pair of aces (plus whatever Hero is likely to pick up on the turn or river) at the showdown.

I have to admit I'm curious as to what you think Villain's range is.

Buzz

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

Very sound.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

I generally put villain on a4xx, a low draw (as bad as 56) plus a club draw, 456x, a set, Q3xx where xx makes a low or club draw. A lot of his calling range in the SB definitely includes junky lowcard hands like 2347 which I think he would checkraise here (and perhaps rightly, since I often am counterfeited here).

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

that range was after flop checkraise

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

If you weight his distribution highly toward A4 type hands, 3 betting the flop doesnt make a lot of sense. I would argue that by just calling the flop, you make more money against most players both when the low gets there, and also when it doesnt.

This situation comes up a lot and I think its pretty important. Getting them to bluff that last bet with 0 equity when the low doesn't get there is a lot more important than picking up 3/4 equity on a small bet but letting him fold the river.

When the low gets there, you are almost always gonna make more money by calling the flop and raising later, unless the guy is a maniac and plans on capping the flop with hands that you have crushed. IMO against sane players, if he caps the flop, your equity against his range isn't super anymore.

Edit: as played, raising a high turn is bad. Call the turn, bet if checked to and raise if you make you low otherwise call.

Re: 100/200 SH AA hand with nut low draw, delaying the raise until tur
 

Hmmm I don't know, JV. You're the man at this game, but in my experience, players in this game will have A5, 56, 45, etc., and call down the whole way if they have a pair with it.

Your plan makes perfect sense to me vs. a good player in a HU match, and I think it's an excellent point you make about the value of the river bet trumping everything else by a mile. I just think that in these games, once the pot gets big, typical players will not fold ANYTHING, and our hand does well vs. that range.