400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

Villain is 20/16/3 (183h), I haven't played with him before but I don't play at these hours usually and he seems like a good reg, thinking player.
On this session we have almost no history, I have 3-bet him pre 1 or 2 times and I haven't been overaggro with him, I can't even remember having raised one of his c-bets.

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00/$4.00 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

CO (777.00)
Button (417.40)
SB (559.20)
BB (333.90)
MP2 (86.00)
MP3 (400.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $16.00</font>, Hero calls $16.00, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>,

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $38 )
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets $28.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $100.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $338.00</font>,

I very well could be behind his range here, this is not an appropriate flop to 3-bet with air and it seems to me like he wouldn't do that with AJ or AQ (stupid play right ?) but the board is drawy so I don't know.
It's really weak to fold there, isn't it ?

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

Call quickly.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

This has to be the worst laydown I ever made, just wanted to be sure.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

Don't think a fold is really that bad here.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree

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sameee

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

um the thing is, if you fold here, o dont really know why you raised the flop in the first place. arent you trying to get your money in?

i hate your call preflop but once you call pre how do justify folding here. there a ton of top pair + fdraw + str8draw type hands he can have here. obv the hands that have you crushed are AAKK1010.

I would not fold.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

isnt this the classic slightly ahead/way behind

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

snap call

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
isnt this the classic slightly ahead/way behind

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah but odds are too good now

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

We need about 37% equity to get it in here, and against a pretty tight range we're slightly -EV.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

46,530 games 0.005 secs 9,306,000 games/sec

Board: As Kc Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.755% 30.11% 05.64% 14012 2625.00 { AdTs }
Hand 1: 64.245% 58.60% 05.64% 27268 2625.00 { KK+, TT, AKs, AcQc, AcJc, ATs, Ac9c, Ac8c, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac4c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KTs, QJs, AKo, ATo, KTo, QJo }

Add in some other flush draw combinations besides the nut flush draw, stuff like AQ/AJ which will shove a decent amount of the time, as well as other different draws he might overplay this is definitely a call. Perhaps not as +EV as I thought a call would be, but +EV nonetheless.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

ok i see

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

I like your hand range aislephive, so with this range, starting from wich depth a fold becomes acceptable ? I guess 125BB is the limit because over that we'll need more than 37% of equity.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

calling quickly here is abhorrently horrendous. Please do not do this. If you do make easy calls in these spots, please switch over from online to live play and come sit in my games. What are we beating here? The above example which includes almost all flush draws is good, but IMO he never had KTs/KTo here, and rarely has the other AT's.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

Just call the flop.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just call the flop.

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yes

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

Yeah I wouldn't raise the flop here, esp if I'm folding to a shove. Thats just horrible. As played I would call, but I would still hate it.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

I think this is an extremely close call. 16% PFR raising from the CO won't have much more in his range than what aislephive has and may not even always raise the suited aces and stuff like KTo

It's not a snap-call, more like decision based on how the games are playing there at those stakes (e.g., how much playing back at cbets is going on to justify him shoving AQ and so forth).

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

A 20/16 player on the CO is almost definitely opening all decent suited connectors, all suited aces, and almost for sure KT.

[ QUOTE ]
calling quickly here is abhorrently horrendous. Please do not do this. If you do make easy calls in these spots, please switch over from online to live play and come sit in my games. What are we beating here? The above example which includes almost all flush draws is good, but IMO he never had KTs/KTo here, and rarely has the other AT's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, if he gets to the flop with two pair, he is almost definitely shoving over our raise. And no, I didn't include nearly all flush draws. I included only the nut flush draw.

Re: 400NL - fold top and bottom two on the flop ?
 

hypothetically speaking-

if you just call the flop, what do we do when:

leads the turn for 2/3 pot?

he checks the turn?