Fish in a Barrel...
 

A lot of the books I have read are about solid play. Some go into loose aggressive play but not many. There's lots of theory, odds, outs, etc. Lots of how to play tourneys early, mid, late, heads up and on and on.

What I have found sadly lacking is how to play against very bad opponents. I have at least two books full of NL theory and then on one page it describes "When playing against very bad players, loose callers, etc simply play straightforward poker. Value bet. Don't bluff and don't slowplay."

Is there a book out there that expands on that thought to more than one page? Here are some guys I need to beat:

1. Chronic min-raisers.

2. Bets pot on every street.

3. Bets minimum on every street.

4. Limps UTG with K6off.

5. Goes all-in for 1500 when blinds are 10/20.

6. Plays randomly, bluffs randomly, bets randomly.

7. Plays a paired Arag like it's the nuts.

8. etc.

I know mostly what the remedy is, price them out of draws, play position, raise pf for value, jada, jada, jada.

But is there a book out there that has a large chunk which analyzes the play of these guys. There must be several categories they can fall under and I'm looking for insight. If they are truly random, I suppose you can only play an odds game. But these guys must have patterns.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

Can you not, y'know, think about the problems?

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

Well, hell, man, EVERY book out there tells you how to beat bad players. At least that's the attempt. Whether they accomplish it or not is more on the reader than the author.

It's amazing how many people out there think there is a magic bullet that will transform them into world-class poker players in 300 pages. Expertise without effort is beyond your reach. Do the freakin' work.

There's probably 100,000 posts on 2+2 that will tell you how to beat these guys.

Read, study and play every day for five years, then come back and ask the same question. You won't. Either you will know how bad the question is, or you won't be playing anymore.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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Well, hell, man, EVERY book out there tells you how to beat bad players. At least that's the attempt. Whether they accomplish it or not is more on the reader than the author.

It's amazing how many people out there think there is a magic bullet that will transform them into world-class poker players in 300 pages. Expertise without effort is beyond your reach. Do the freakin' work.

There's probably 100,000 posts on 2+2 that will tell you how to beat these guys.

Read, study and play every day for five years, then come back and ask the same question. You won't. Either you will know how bad the question is, or you won't be playing anymore.

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I realize all of this. I have probably printed about 100 posts from here and there with good advice. I have a pretty good approach to playing against these players as well. I have even made quite a few posts myself giving advice that I hope is clear and helpful.

All I am asking is if there is a book that has a concentration of advice in this area. I suspect as you suggest that lots of books have spatterings about this kind of advice. And perhaps I should have been clear that I am talking about NL.

I am already beating these players but as we all know, we want to become more proficient by fine-tuning our game. Nothing makes me happier than making a calling station fold. It's just that that is very difficult to do.

On the other hand, I might just write such a book (sorry for any unintended ego float here). Maybe I could call it "Fighting through NL Holdem Online $10 at a time" or something shorter and catchier.

I guess the bottom line is that I get better results in mid games against better players than I do at lower stakes like $10-$20 MTTs. Maybe I'm doing better than I think though.

Just looking to improve man.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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I am already beating these players but as we all know, we want to become more proficient by fine-tuning our game. Nothing makes me happier than making a calling station fold. It's just that that is very difficult to do.

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I think you need to return to the basics. Calling stations don't fold, thats what makes them calling stations. So instead of trying to make your calling station opponents do things that they wont do, start trying to adjust your actions to match the player type.

PS: read Professional NL Hold'em, sounds like this book is made for you. Also read the strat forums, you dont have a single post in them that I can find.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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I am already beating these players but as we all know, we want to become more proficient by fine-tuning our game. Nothing makes me happier than making a calling station fold. It's just that that is very difficult to do.

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I think you need to return to the basics. Calling stations don't fold, thats what makes them calling stations. So instead of trying to make your calling station opponents do things that they wont do, start trying to adjust your actions to match the player type.

PS: read Professional NL Hold'em, sounds like this book is made for you. Also read the strat forums, you dont have a single post in them that I can find.

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Thanks, Professional NL Hold'em is on the way from Amazon. Waiting patiently for Negranau's book too.

I post in MTT strategy once and awhile and Poker Strategy a lot.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. My hand is JJ. I raise (although I am doing that less now because a lot of these loose players call with Arag or two paints like KT so overcards are always a problem so deep stack I might play JJ for set value).

All right, so 3 players call my raise (which is now usually more than 3xBB). The flop is 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet out or raise any bet in front of me and still get one or two players still in. And I do bet enough to make draws costly. However, reading the hands I'm against I have found that I can be facing A8, A6, A2, K8, K6, any draw, and sometimes 99 or TT but those guys usually move in here. There's also the odd numbskull who called a raise with 86.

Against good players I am up against a set, slowplayed AA or a move (or maybe 86 against a guy who knows how to play that). And good players might hang around with 99 or TT but not be pushing it.

Sorry to turn this to strategy but this is the kind of hand I am looking for in a book and how to analyze the various crazies that are still around.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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...Nothing makes me happier than making a calling station fold. It's just that that is very difficult to do....



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Why would you be happy to make a calling station fold? If you are playing straightfoward ABC poker against a calling station you are only betting when you have a hand and you are never happy when he folds.

Maybe your problem is you know what ABC poker is, but you never practice it?

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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There's also the odd numbskull who called a raise with 86.



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can you tell me whats wrong with calling a 3xbb pf raise with position in deep stack NL?

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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There's also the odd numbskull who called a raise with 86.



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can you tell me whats wrong with calling a 3xbb pf raise with position in deep stack NL?

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Against good players I am up against a set, slowplayed AA or a move (or maybe 86 against a guy who knows how to play that).

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I agreed already that you can do this but I wouldn't make a habit of it, even as a good player.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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...Nothing makes me happier than making a calling station fold. It's just that that is very difficult to do....



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Why would you be happy to make a calling station fold? If you are playing straightfoward ABC poker against a calling station you are only betting when you have a hand and you are never happy when he folds.

Maybe your problem is you know what ABC poker is, but you never practice it?

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Sigh.

Some calling stations actually do fold. There is something that spooks them. It might be the size of the bet, it might be a paired board, it might be my image, it might be a three flush board when they have a straight draw, it might be folding the river always when they don't improve.

I get the part about not bluffing them and value betting good hands and I do that. However, I am trying to add a next dimension to squeeze a bit more out of them by recongnizing the exact situation(s) they are most afraid of and a bluff is actually +EV against these guys at that time.

I don't know about you but I am always looking for an edge. And when a strategy says something like "NEVER blah blah blah..", I like to dissect that and see if I can turn it into a MOSTLY. And of course, MOSTLY has to have positive expectation.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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I am already beating these players but as we all know, we want to become more proficient by fine-tuning our game. Nothing makes me happier than making a calling station fold. It's just that that is very difficult to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to return to the basics. Calling stations don't fold, thats what makes them calling stations. So instead of trying to make your calling station opponents do things that they wont do, start trying to adjust your actions to match the player type.

PS: read Professional NL Hold'em, sounds like this book is made for you. Also read the strat forums, you dont have a single post in them that I can find.

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Thanks, Professional NL Hold'em is on the way from Amazon. Waiting patiently for Negranau's book too.

I post in MTT strategy once and awhile and Poker Strategy a lot.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. My hand is JJ. I raise (although I am doing that less now because a lot of these loose players call with Arag or two paints like KT so overcards are always a problem so deep stack I might play JJ for set value).

All right, so 3 players call my raise (which is now usually more than 3xBB). The flop is 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet out or raise any bet in front of me and still get one or two players still in. And I do bet enough to make draws costly. However, reading the hands I'm against I have found that I can be facing A8, A6, A2, K8, K6, any draw, and sometimes 99 or TT but those guys usually move in here. There's also the odd numbskull who called a raise with 86.

Against good players I am up against a set, slowplayed AA or a move (or maybe 86 against a guy who knows how to play that). And good players might hang around with 99 or TT but not be pushing it.

Sorry to turn this to strategy but this is the kind of hand I am looking for in a book and how to analyze the various crazies that are still around.

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PNL should help with this a lot - this type of hand seems to be exactly what target SPR's addresses. With overpair type hands you want a fairly low (~4 or less) SPR so you can profitably commit against these type of players range of hands when you flop an overpair (in other words, try to get enough into the pot preflop so they don't have the implied odds to chase down your overpair when you make a pot sized bet). If you can't get the SPR low enough with preflop betting, try and have a very high SPR (>20) and try to keep the pot small. They explain it much better in the book.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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I agreed already that you can do this but I wouldn't make a habit of it, even as a good player.

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then you will never be a good player. Think about it... are you trying to win the hand or your opponent's stack?

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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I agreed already that you can do this but I wouldn't make a habit of it, even as a good player.

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then you will never be a good player. Think about it... are you trying to win the hand or your opponent's stack?

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This is the book forum right? Please point me to a NL book that says you should call early raises with 86 offsuit in hopes of stacking somebody.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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I agreed already that you can do this but I wouldn't make a habit of it, even as a good player.

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then you will never be a good player. Think about it... are you trying to win the hand or your opponent's stack?

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This is the book forum right? Please point me to a NL book that says you should call early raises with 86 offsuit in hopes of stacking somebody.

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It's probably not the exact situation you might be looking for, but (going from memory), Largay talks about that when he initially sits down in a LLNL game in "No Limit Texas Hold'em"

Just looked it up, pg 166, talking about calling with 82s, with a raise from UTG to $20 (in a 1/2 game).

Shane

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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It's probably not the exact situation you might be looking for, but (going from memory), Largay talks about that when he initially sits down in a LLNL game in "No Limit Texas Hold'em"

Just looked it up, pg 166, talking about calling with 82s, with a raise from UTG to $20 (in a 1/2 game).

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Thanks, finally an actual recommendation for a book rather than flak.

It sounds like he is setting a tone as a loose, wild player and then playing tight. You're right that this isn't exactly the situation I was talking about regarding playing a trash hand to try and stack somebody.

I'll check out that book, thanks again.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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It's probably not the exact situation you might be looking for, but (going from memory), Largay talks about that when he initially sits down in a LLNL game in "No Limit Texas Hold'em"

Just looked it up, pg 166, talking about calling with 82s, with a raise from UTG to $20 (in a 1/2 game).

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Thanks, finally an actual recommendation for a book rather than flak.

It sounds like he is setting a tone as a loose, wild player and then playing tight. You're right that this isn't exactly the situation I was talking about regarding playing a trash hand to try and stack somebody.

I'll check out that book, thanks again.

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Yeah, it's a bit of setting up loose play early then tightening up-that's part of it. The other part of why he recommends that is because of the limitation on buy-ins (it's a live play book), and it seems a lot of places--online too--have a buyin of 50-100 bb. That play sets up a loose image, and also can result in getting a nice stack to play more deep stacked poker. Although I think he talks about the use of calling with such cards as deception as well...

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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Nothing makes me happier than making a calling station fold. It's just that that is very difficult to do.


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I would suggest that you caefully monitor your play to make sure you haven't developed Fancy Play Syndrome.

Why are you tryng to swim upstream? I think there is an old Chinese proverb that says something like, "It is much easier to lead a horse if you lead him in the direction he is already going." Why would you want to make a calling station fold and why do you get pleasure from it? It sounds like you know you are a good player and you have to prove it on the felt.

Making a calling station fold isn't +EV, extracting maximum value buy letting them call off their chips is +EV.

Re: Fish in a Barrel...
 

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It's probably not the exact situation you might be looking for, but (going from memory), Largay talks about that when he initially sits down in a LLNL game in "No Limit Texas Hold'em"

Just looked it up, pg 166, talking about calling with 82s, with a raise from UTG to $20 (in a 1/2 game).

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, finally an actual recommendation for a book rather than flak.

It sounds like he is setting a tone as a loose, wild player and then playing tight. You're right that this isn't exactly the situation I was talking about regarding playing a trash hand to try and stack somebody.

I'll check out that book, thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's a bit of setting up loose play early then tightening up-that's part of it. The other part of why he recommends that is because of the limitation on buy-ins (it's a live play book), and it seems a lot of places--online too--have a buyin of 50-100 bb. That play sets up a loose image, and also can result in getting a nice stack to play more deep stacked poker. Although I think he talks about the use of calling with such cards as deception as well...

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Now that I think of it, one of the problems I seem to encounter is that I am playing against Level 1 thinkers. So much of my play which might be for deception or setting up an image or setting up any future play is lost on them. And one thing I am trying very hard to get a handle on is not to do too much Level 3 thinking against these players which can get me into trouble. On top of that, there are a few Level 2 players and if I stay at Level 2 as well, I can't outplay them.

Perhaps I am looking for two books as follows:

Volume 1: "How To Play Optimally Against Level 1 Thinkers"

Volume 2: "How To Tell Level 1 Thnikers From Level 2 Thinkers"


Thanks for all the replys and even the flak. It's been a slice.