QTs Live
 

8/16 live. Good game. One nice but maniacal guy is raising and 3 betting blind PF.

8 handed:
UTG(bought in short and is bad)limps, MP(plays too many hands) limps, HJ limps, Hero is BTN with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and raises, SB(loose PF and shows down marg stuff)calls, BB(Maniac guy refererd to in top of post) calls, rest all call. 6 to the flop.

(11.5 SBs) Flop comes T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] SB bets, BB folds, MP calls, HJ calls, Hero raises, all call. 4 to the turn.

(10 BBs) Turn comes the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Checked to hero who bets, SB calls, rest fold. HU to the ribba

(12 BBs) River comes the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] SB Grabs 8 chips & is just about to bet but she looks at me & checks. Hero ?

Re: QTs Live
 

BTW, my image is solid, having shown down 2-3 big hands in the past 30 minutes or so, getting some respettttt!

Re: QTs Live
 

Checks. Sb either had a jack or a straight draw. She looks like she wants to call. If she had the straight draw it wouldnt matter because shes not calling your bet anyway. Not sure I like the turn bet after you got three callers on the flop. I dont think you're ahead often enough and you have no redraw. You probably should have checked behind and hoped to spike something on the river.

Re: QTs Live
 

virtually every street is dicked way up in there, imo...

Re: QTs Live
 

PF good. flop good. turn bet prob ok considering pot size. check the river.

Re: QTs Live
 

I would check the river. This would be ultra thin. This is definitely also an 'it depends' type situation though. You just gotta feel it out every time is all I can say.

Other than that though I like PF, flop and turn.

Yeah probably check the river more often that not though.

Re: QTs Live
 

I'm only raising the flop if my intention is to take a free card. You are beat here a ton.

I'm leaning towards a river check but it's close.

Re: QTs Live
 

I don't know, I guess in this spot I'd just check, but playing in the game I'd know right away if I could bet and get called by 88 or if I was gonna bet and get instacalled by AA and hear her exclaim I THOUGHT YOU HAD JT!!!1

Eh, wait, she bet in to the raiser PF. Just check dude, and check the turn. Yeah betting this turn is bad and you set yourself up for CRs doing this in the future.

Re: QTs Live
 

Usually when they grab chips prematurely, it means that they really want a free showdown. I might be behind, but I think it is best to valuebet/bluff here.

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Usually when they grab chips prematurely, it means that they really want a free showdown. I might be behind, but I think it is best to valuebet/bluff here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It means they want a free show down, but it does mean they're planning on showing down. She's not folding any hand we beat here. If you're betting this river it is not done as a bluff, either value bet it, or check.

And since she led the flop into PF raiser. She has a T, J, pr straight draw.

Straight draw isnt calling , J isnt folding, so we need to decide if we beat enough tens to justify a bet/. I dont think we do

Re: QTs Live
 

Agree, turn bet was on the lame side. I realized it right after. I was all set up to get a freebie too if I so wanted.

Good and helpful responses except for Jlovescandys:
[ QUOTE ]
virtually every street is dicked way up in there, imo...



[/ QUOTE ]

I really do like critique on my play but come on dude, if your'e gonna say something like that than back it with some advice or something with a semblence of an explanation so I as well as others can MAYBE benefit.

Re: QTs Live
 

I'd support the turn bet if I thought it would get anybody out who caught a part of the flop.

Normally I wouldn't think it could, but you somehow managed to get it headsup so hooray for that.

I expect to lose this hand most of the time on the river, so value betting isn't crossing my mind.

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agree, turn bet was on the lame side. I realized it right after. I was all set up to get a freebie too if I so wanted.

Good and helpful responses except for Jlovescandys:
[ QUOTE ]
virtually every street is dicked way up in there, imo...



[/ QUOTE ]

I really do like critique on my play but come on dude, if your'e gonna say something like that than back it with some advice or something with a semblence of an explanation so I as well as others can MAYBE benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hello, I am Johnny's savior and will answer on his behalf...

Let's begin preflop: raise is marginal, so take it or leave it and let's move on...

Flop: why do you raise here? You're not protecting you're hand, and you may well be behind. There's not even a spade on board, giving you a very weak draw. You're simply adding value to other better hands/stronger draws by raising.

Turn: Just check here. This card did not improve your hand so you're probably still behind, and a bet is not going to get others to fold because the pot's too big.

River: No reason to bet, imo. Any jack or a bigger ten beats you.

Please forgive dear Johnny, he honestly tries his dearest to help. May God be with you...

Re: QTs Live
 

My two cents:

PF: I guess the raise is OK. Were you hoping the maniac in the BB would 3 town it blind and you might fold out some of the limpers? I usually would limp here, but the more I think about it, I like your raise.

Flop: I am in favor of merely calling the flop, as the raise does not protect your hand and you're probably behind.

Turn: Once you raised on the flop though, I like the turn bet. Bad players calling 2 bets one at a time on a flop of TJ3r could have almost any two (just a 9,Q or K might cause them to call, not to mention backdoor flush draws). If you check this turn, you're going to get bet at on the river and probably need to call.

River: Check. She's not dropping a hand that beats you for 1 bet. The reason to bet the turn, IMO, is to eliminate opponents and then check behind UI on the river.

Re: QTs Live
 

-grunch-

i dont get a flop raise. so many oponents we have to be beat. whats the trick? plz explaine

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
-grunch-

i dont get a flop raise. so many oponents we have to be beat. whats the trick? plz explaine

[/ QUOTE ]

He is raising because he thinks he has the best hand right now and wants to charge them more money to draw.

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-grunch-

i dont get a flop raise. so many oponents we have to be beat. whats the trick? plz explaine

[/ QUOTE ]

He is raising because he thinks he has the best hand right now and wants to charge them more money to draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

and could others confirm that thats the right play here?
doest it look wrong only to me?

Re: QTs Live
 

Well, I could have taken the free card as played cause I was totally set up to do so on the turn. I Opted not to cause of my image at the time. Also with the SB betting on the flop and that many callers my flop raise now doesn't look to hot unless I do think I do have the best hand and it is for value. I wasn't automatically putting SB on a J or T just yet cause as my read stated she had been showing down marg stuff. I was able to get it HU with her.

I guess this is just a different line I took with this hand than the standard, call the flop, SB bets into the field again & I fold the turn UI etc.

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
wasn't automatically putting SB on a J or T just yet cause as my read stated she had been showing down marg stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what are you putting her on and will it call?

Re: QTs Live
 

Not giving her credit just yet.

Re: QTs Live
 

I think the turn bet for one BB is good here and you get a free showdown. Had you just checked the turn, SB would probably bet the river and you'd be faced with calling that one BB anyway or folding. I agree, I don't think a value bet is worth it here (even though when she shows her T9, you'll wish you had).

Re: QTs Live
 

credit for what? Theres no point in betting if she has no hand because shes not going to call anyway. For her to call she has to half at least something, and I dont see much something that you'd beat

Re: QTs Live
 

Preflop: Ridiculously standard

Flop: Not sure why you raised here. But what the hell, could slow them down.

Turn: You could take the freebie. Betting isn't terrible since you'd be inducing a bluff on the river if you checked behind. So I think if you're going to call a river bet, you may as well bet here. If you know you're likely behind then check behind and fold on the river UI.

River: Check behind. You're not getting a better hand to fold and there's some missing info:

You say SB: [ QUOTE ]
SB(loose PF and shows down marg stuff)

[/ QUOTE ]

That really doesn't tell us what they get aggressive with. Would this person bet a draw? If not, what types of made hands are they betting on the flop? Would they bet an underpair to the J here?

b

Re: QTs Live
 

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] preflop and I will say it again, if you always took it to 2 bets with suited broadways otb preflop you would not be doing much wrong. Flop raise I really don't understand, we're not getting much value with second pair against that many villains, especially since i do think you have to bet the turn either way but raising walks us into a c/r more often. As played I would check the river.

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] preflop and I will say it again, if you always took it to 2 bets with suited broadways otb preflop you would not be doing much wrong. Flop raise I really don't understand, we're not getting much value with second pair against that many villains, especially since i do think you have to bet the turn either way but raising walks us into a c/r more often. As played I would check the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people may be giving the SB too much credit for a possible turn C/R. Loose players who show down marginal stuff usually don't c/r much. Since there was no mention of his range aggression-wise, I'll assume he's on the more passive side. Aggression is usually noteworthy in some way, it wasn't noted here. He very easily could be in call down mode here. I think I'd expect a weak J here at showdown.

b

Re: QTs Live
 

Yeah the c/r isn't that likely, but it is a small consideration and just another argument (of several) for not taking this line.

Re: QTs Live
 

Frond if you check the turn are you calling a river bet?

Re: QTs Live
 

Love the preflop raise as it gives a tight player a looser image. "Illusion of action." Nice. Will pay off down the road.

I'm okay with the raise on the flop. Little money for the benefit of keeping the initiative, and again, that illusion.

Turn check. If anyone calls the flop raise, they probably have you beat and there really isn't any reason to throw more money at them.

River? I can't see a value bet unless you have a very very good read. Only a very small chance you're good, and there is little chance a bluff succeeds because there's only a semantical difference between "shows down marginal stuff" and the traditional CALLING STATION.

But showing you're QTs is going to make people think you're a real action jackson. They'd be wrong, cause you've made a big mistake betting the turn, but no doubt in my mind you'll get it back and more when they call down your KK next time.

(Frond, congrats on moving up to the 8/16. I remember when...)

Re: QTs Live
 

Preflop: Good stuff. You've got a bunch of marginal players limping and you're raising with what could be the best hand, and if it isn't there are a lot of ways for this hand to play well.

Flop: The flop raise is ok. I make this move a lot myself (maybe too much) when I might have the best hand and want to press people a bit and see who might have a strong hand. In this case it might be a marginal move, SB limped in and then bet into the whole field (not to mention the preflop raiser). A huge portion of her range has a J here, and if she's only got a 10 it is likely bigger than yours.

Turn: Once again, I normally bet here, but in this case the check is probably better. Are you folding to a raise here? If you're feeling that your hand might still be best, and you're showdown-bound, a bet/fold here might be an okay line, since a check will cost you the same amount when you get bet into on the river, but will give all the other players a free card to suck out. I think you need to improve to win though, and a free card in this position is basically the best reason for the flop raise.

River: Check. The loading chips thing is a sign of weakness, but it's likely that she only thinks she's losing because of the strength you've shown throughout the hand. A preflop raise, flop raise, turn bet probably has her thinking overpair or better, but she's calling with top pair here a huge percentage of the time.

If she's really weak, bet at her, since it is your best chance at the pot and only needs to work a tiny fraction of the time to be EV+.

Re: QTs Live
 

whoever said that the turn bet isn't going to get anyone to fold must not play live much. Most live low limit players will peel the flop with just about any 2 cards, but will fold to continued aggression on the big bet streets - as obv happened here. I don't think the turn bet is a mistake as you thinned the field which improves your winning chances and your pot equity and gives you a free showdown if your hand doesn't improve. A check on the turn makes your hand look like AK or something else that missed the flop. A check on the turn also gives someone else a free card to complete their straight or 2 pair and makes the river difficult to play. FWIW - assuming you checked the river, I play it the same.

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
whoever said that the turn bet isn't going to get anyone to fold must not play live much. Most live low limit players will peel the flop with just about any 2 cards, but will fold to continued aggression on the big bet streets - as obv happened here. I don't think the turn bet is a mistake as you thinned the field which improves your winning chances and your pot equity and gives you a free showdown if your hand doesn't improve. A check on the turn makes your hand look like AK or something else that missed the flop. A check on the turn also gives someone else a free card to complete their straight or 2 pair and makes the river difficult to play. FWIW - assuming you checked the river, I play it the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, i think many folks are thinking too much about online play in this hand (like the likelihood of getting CR'd on the turn, players peeling tightly on the flop, etc).

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
whoever said that the turn bet isn't going to get anyone to fold must not play live much. Most live low limit players will peel the flop with just about any 2 cards, but will fold to continued aggression on the big bet streets - as obv happened here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could not have said it better myself.

Re: QTs Live
 

My personal lower limit on this kind of PF raise is QJs but I like stretching things a little live because of the rush factor. I do not believe in rushes, but other players sure do!

The turn raise is the question mark. Is that raise too far out of your playing character? And what hand do you put SB on? You just got bet into. Is SB holding a J and testing you to determine whether you AK or JJ+? That's very standard. So I like the raise for deception because of position and I'll find out where I stand with SB. If he doesn't fold, he is likely to have a Jack. If he 3 bets me, he has 2 pairs or better.

On the turn I take the free card I set up because my best explanation of SB's betting pattern is that SB could well have me beat with a Jack.

If SB then pounces on the river and bets out, that would tend to the confirm the Jack. The pot is now smaller and I can choose to call it down or let it go. Given SB's tendency to show down marginal stuff, I'd probably call. But if I played it this way and SB bets out the river, I think he has the Jack.

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn I take the free card I set up because my best explanation of SB's betting pattern is that SB could well have me beat with a Jack.

If SB then pounces on the river and bets out, that would tend to the confirm the Jack.

[/ QUOTE ]

You cant let three players see the river for free. Pots big, no need to worry about getting the SB to bluff the river. Bet the turn to force out any lose peelers who dont realize they've got great odds and then check behind UI on the river

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn check. If anyone calls the flop raise, they probably have you beat and there really isn't any reason to throw more money at them.


[/ QUOTE ]

The only one I'd worry about is the flop bettor.

b

Re: QTs Live
 

With your image in that game (HG right), I would call the flop and raise any turn that blanked or improved me. Also, the river is a value bet against this clown.

Re: QTs Live
 

Bernie,

Given the read, my guess is that he's showing down any pair and could have any 1 pair hand here. Probably likes to gamble it up on early/cheap streets and takes extra bets on big streets seriously, but tends to just showdown his crap when it has a 1 in 100 shot of winning.

That said, no way we can fold here, so I'm putting in an extra bet somewhere to give me an extra shot at winning the pot and put a little doubt in the heads of my opponents because I'm the table squeezer. Given the flop action, I think the turn is the spot to do it. It won't happen often, but I think we get someone else to fold a hand as strong as Jx often enough to have value.

Re: QTs Live
 

To me this is a straightforward free card play. We're getting 14-1 to draw to 2pr, trips, or a backdoor straight with position. Raising seems clear. At the magnificent HG someone probably snuck in there with a weak jack, and catching something on the turn or riv is about your only chance I think.

As played check the river.

Re: QTs Live
 

Uhhh.... so many turn cards will be so ugly. Anyway, it's silly to think Jx or better is out if the table action bets and is just called on two streets. This is exactly the kind of spot where a weak hand ends up scooping a big pot on the river after two blanks drop.

Re: QTs Live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uhhh.... so many turn cards will be so ugly. Anyway, it's silly to think Jx or better is out if the table action bets and is just called on two streets. This is exactly the kind of spot where a weak hand ends up scooping a big pot on the river after two blanks drop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wrong it hurts. OP raised in late position after a bunch of limpers. SB bet out on the flop into 4 people, including the preflop raiser. This represents top pair or better a large portion of the time.

Sure, SB could have middle pair with backdoor draws or an OESD that they are playing strongly, but statistically fewer players bet here with those. It is absolutely not likely that the callers have a J, but that doesn't mean the SB doesn't.