Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

Effective Stacks: 4600
No read on villain

MP raises to 50
I call in LP with 55
SB calls
BB calls

Flop: ($200) 457r
SB bets 80
BB calls
I raise to 540 with middle set
SB goes all in for andother 4k

Call? Fold?

I'd also like to hear from other deep-stack players as to whether I should smooth-call his initial bet for fear of the straight. Also, would your decision be different if there were 2 of a suit on the flop? What about 3 of a suit?

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

yes it makes a big diff. if there are 2 or 3 to a flush on the board.... With a 3 flush im not calling allin; and just smooth calling more often than raising on the flop. Also what kind of player is SB... ive seen live donks flip over something like 88 or some other ridicolous hand in this spot.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

My only read is that he seems fairly solid. I'm putting him on at least 2 pair.

Also, he's asian, and he's sitting on about 9k. I figure he's probably a pro, but he could also just be a big gambler.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

i call this all day and im going to be double fist pumping..if he seriously played 68 this retarded then buy him a beer

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

if its all one suit fold otherwise call

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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if its all one suit fold otherwise call

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Do you raise his initial bet if the flop is rainbow or has two of a suit?

My question is whether I should play this more cautiously because we are so deep-stacked.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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if its all one suit fold otherwise call

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Do you raise his initial bet if the flop is rainbow or has two of a suit?

My question is whether I should play this more cautiously because we are so deep-stacked.

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the flop is somewhat coordinated even though its rain bow so a flat call is a death trap..if the flop was all scattered rainbow then a flat call is sexy..if its 2 of a suite on the flop then obv raise..i usually only fold sets if i have a very strong read and this doesn't sound like that occasion

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

callll

run it twice when behind obv

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

this is an easy call. 44 is legit decision but a call. 63 is a quasi decision but a solid call. anything else is a fold.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

looks like a fold

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

I'm not gonna be betting twice the size of the pot unless I'm pretty excited at the thought of getting all my money in.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

pretty sure this is a fold. the underbet-lead/massive-overbet-reraise-all-in really looks like the nuts.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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I'm not gonna be betting twice the size of the pot unless I'm pretty excited at the thought of getting all my money in.

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he didnt, thats a PSR.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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pretty sure this is a fold. the underbet-lead/massive-overbet-reraise-all-in really looks like the nuts.

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How about 66?

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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looks like a fold

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seriously?
pokenum -h 5h 5d - 6h 8d -- 4c 5s 7h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 5s 4c 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5d 5h 341 34.44 640 64.65 9 0.91 0.349
8d 6h 640 64.65 341 34.44 9 0.91 0.651

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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[ QUOTE ]
looks like a fold

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seriously?
pokenum -h 5h 5d - 6h 8d -- 4c 5s 7h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 5s 4c 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5d 5h 341 34.44 640 64.65 9 0.91 0.349
8d 6h 640 64.65 341 34.44 9 0.91 0.651

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what's your point?

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

his point escaped me as well

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

i fold too, looks like u found where the nuts are

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

lol he forgot 77 in his EV calc too

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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pretty sure this is a fold. the underbet-lead/massive-overbet-reraise-all-in really looks like the nuts.

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I knew it meant he was strong. I just didn't know how strong.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

if 77 is viable so is 44 and two pair and it becomes a pretty obvious call.

the point of the prior post was to show it wasn't that far from a call if he only had the nuts

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

I don't mikech or myself have difficulty realizing that it's an obvious call if his range is 68, 44, 77, 75, 74, and 45.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

so you have a read that his range is exactly a straight?

is that the kind of credit we are giving unknown live players now?

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

I would assume that he would be more likely to play the very strongest hands in that range in this manner with a much higher frequency, which is much more relevant than simply asking what hands could he possibly have here.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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I would assume that he would be more likely to play the very strongest hands in that range in this manner with a much higher frequency

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villain unknown

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i don't think you can make that assumption, its a live play, not exactly known for its nits

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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the point of the prior post was to show it wasn't that far from a call if he only had the nuts

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you should brush up on your arithmetic.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

that far from a call is a relative term....

ty

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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I would assume that he would be more likely to play the very strongest hands in that range in this manner with a much higher frequency

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villain unknown

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i don't think you can make that assumption, its a live play, not exactly known for its nits

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I have to make some sort of assumption to be able to make a decision. I would assume that someone sitting with $4k in a 5/10 game would be more likely to play 77 or a straight like this then he would bottom 2.

My experience tells me that this is a reasonable assumption.

btw, how much live experience do you have?

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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if 77 is viable so is 44 and two pair and it becomes a pretty obvious call.

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??

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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if 77 is viable so is 44 and two pair and it becomes a pretty obvious call.

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??

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well obviously if he can ever have TOP SET we gotta throw TWO PERRRRRRS in there as well

lol

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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if 77 is viable so is 44 and two pair and it becomes a pretty obvious call.

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not many ppl stick in 450bb's on the flop with 2pr. particularly not with this specific sequence of action: weak lead into a field of players, gets called in one spot, raised strong by another, yet still 3bets all-in for NEARLY 3 TIMES THE POT. this is a set or a straight 95%+ of the time.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

this is why it would be cool to have a deepstacked live poker forum, because the ppl who i feel lack in live poker experience seem to be the ones most advocating a call.

ofc i could be wrong in my assessments.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

also does anyone raise to like 375'ish? heros flop line seems weird.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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i call this all day and im going to be double fist pumping..if he seriously played 68 this retarded then buy him a beer

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if he puts you on a set/2 pair, he could think you would call when he has a straight. not that this is a great play, but something he could be thinking.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

looks like a fold, but i can definitely see myself spite calling if i feel like it. there is more to poker than EV [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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if 77 is viable so is 44 and two pair and it becomes a pretty obvious call.

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not many ppl stick in 450bb's on the flop with 2pr. particularly not with this specific sequence of action: weak lead into a field of players, gets called in one spot, raised strong by another, yet still 3bets all-in for NEARLY 3 TIMES THE POT. this is a set or a straight 95%+ of the time.

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So what do you think he does with, say, top two? Surely you don't think he's going to fold it to my flop raise.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

wait, you think pushing two pair for 450bb is the correct move?

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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[ QUOTE ]
if 77 is viable so is 44 and two pair and it becomes a pretty obvious call.

[/ QUOTE ]
not many ppl stick in 450bb's on the flop with 2pr. particularly not with this specific sequence of action: weak lead into a field of players, gets called in one spot, raised strong by another, yet still 3bets all-in for NEARLY 3 TIMES THE POT. this is a set or a straight 95%+ of the time.

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Pokerstove just clarified a lot for me:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

9,900 games 0.005 secs 1,980,000 games/sec

Board: 4d 5h 7c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.929% 42.78% 01.15% 4235 114.00 { 5c5s }
Hand 1: 56.071% 54.92% 01.15% 5437 114.00 { 77, 44, 86s }

Even if we restrict his range to a set or a straight, my equity is 43.9% of 9480 = $4,162

My price to see the showdown was $4,000, so unless I'm not thinking clearly, I gained $162 in equity with that call.

Again, this assumes that he would do this with bottom set, an assumption that I am comfortable with.

It's strange: you would think that adding top and bottom set to his range would be a wash. Instead, my equity against the straight is 34.8%, but if the sets are included it is 43.9%. Any ideas why that might be?

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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wait, you think pushing two pair for 450bb is the correct move?

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I don't think it's correct, but I think a lot of people would do it.

I don't think a fold is correct either. I don't think he could assume that his top two is no good just from my raise.

Re: Venetian 5-10 Deep Set
 

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if 77 is viable so is 44 and two pair and it becomes a pretty obvious call.

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not many ppl stick in 450bb's on the flop with 2pr. particularly not with this specific sequence of action: weak lead into a field of players, gets called in one spot, raised strong by another, yet still 3bets all-in for NEARLY 3 TIMES THE POT. this is a set or a straight 95%+ of the time.

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So what do you think he does with, say, top two? Surely you don't think he's going to fold it to my flop raise.

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what are you talking about? he has only 2 choices, fold or shove for 3x pot?