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- - Expensive KJ (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=491419)

Villain is unknown 35/4/2 after 25 hands.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (17 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (21 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 23 BB

PF: Maybe a little bit on the loose side, i thought people would respect my raise a little bit more [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I make it 4 because of the overcalls.

Flop: I like it. When he makes it 3, i´m concerned to be against AK or AA, but with the overcalls i decide to make it one more.

Turn+River: He keeps betting, but i made the pot so big i have to call. (Maybe i have some outs)

Just a little bit too aggressive ?

Re: Expensive KJ

Wow.

Just wow.

What did you put him on when he kicked your ass on the flop?
And then on the turn?
And then on the river?

Re: Expensive KJ

PF is good
flop, just call down from the 3-bet. With a read you can fold the turn. [edit] or river.[/Edit]

the LRR is anything from AA to zomfg-how-dare-u-go-agressive-on-ma-when I limp 37s.

Re: Expensive KJ

Yeah, i know things got out of control - but on the flop im still not convinced if he isn´t betting a flushdraw.

Re: Expensive KJ

I would not have raised preflop.

LRR may just be because that player wanted to build a big pot, but sometimes it is AA or KK, and I would just have called the flop 3-bet.

I would probably have called the turn bet, but check/folded the river unimproved.

Re: Expensive KJ

Preflop, I just limp. If it were suited, I raise though

On the flop, there is no way I cap. You raised preflop and on the flop saying you have at least Kx. I would need a read to know that he 3-bets QQ or something here enough to cap, otherwise, this is looking a lot like AA/KK/AK with you being nice enough to help him collect money.

Re: Expensive KJ

I'm not raising preflop with KJ. It's a pretty marginal hand.

I like the flop raise to try to protect your hand and get it heads up. I wouldn't be capping here, though. Villain's 3bet is showing a lot of strength, so I just call down.

I like your turn and river.

Re: Expensive KJ

pf is meh... I prolly limp.

flop cap is nasty.. I actually think you can find a fold somewhere after the flop...

Re: Expensive KJ

GRUNCH:
Just call preflop. KJo is definitely not strong enough to raise with the limpers already in.
I think I just call down from first flop bet. If UTG+1 isn't totally crazy, you're behind his entire range. The thing about LRRs from someone whom you don't have a solid read on is that you don't know what it represents. You're basically hoping that he's doing something stupid. Can we find a fold on that lousy river card though considering we're not closing the action?

Re: Expensive KJ

I fold KJ here, you will only get into troble, sometimes, there will be a raise from late position and you will be drawing slim

Re: Expensive KJ

Too tight. By your reasoning you would only play most hands from the BB to ensure you can't get raised.

Re: Expensive KJ

Some thoughts:

1) the preflop LRR from a 35/4 player is usually AA/KK/AK but could also be QQ or less repping the {A+K} range. With the decisions made earlier in the hand, calling the turn and river is a no-brainer.

2) How you got to that point is by a series of marginal decisions, that quite honestly, could have been made by many of us in the same manner.

3) What do you do with KJo in the hijack seat? Usually it is normal to raise KQo, although a limp may be better with two already in and loose players in the blinds. The profile of the other players yet to act and those already in will tip your decision toward a raise, call, or perhaps fold (the late position players may be loose/tricky enough that you don't want to play this hand and the limpers may also be good postflop despite loose passive looking stats)

4) With the pot being enormous on the flop, your raise is not protecting your hand against flush draws and 5-outers. (Of course we weigh the probability of a pocket pair hitting a set and the offsetting likelihood of a pocket pair being out there to begin with... on balance this is not something to worry about)

5) If you raise the flop, it has to be for value. Against a limp-reraiser's range, you may be best calling the flop. Of course, we also worry about the other players in the hand, but you have a top pair of kings and there are two rags on board. With a flush draw out there you can raise the turn to punish the drawing hands. They are not making a mistake by calling your flop raise.

6) Pot would be somewhat smaller after just calling the flop, you can more easily find a fold to a turn 3-bet if you decide to raise turn.

7) If LRR'er has a flush draw like A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], you are both making money off the callers

Re: Expensive KJ

I thought KJo didn't play when you had many players. Wouldn't that make the case for folding or raising preflop. Calling is just saying to everyone "come on in the water's fine and the pot odds are great." [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
I fold this PF.

Re: Expensive KJ

Too much action on the flop when you capped it.

KJo is good as a limp or a raise. Folding is terrible.

I like raising because you are not likely dominated by the limpers so that if you spike top pair, it's very likely going to be good and you'll get called down by hands you dominate. Then you get value both preflop *AND* postflop instead of just postflop.

Re: Expensive KJ

[ QUOTE ]
I fold KJ here, you will only get into troble, sometimes, there will be a raise from late position and you will be drawing slim

[/ QUOTE ]

you must be running real bad

Re: Expensive KJ

meh preflop anything is pretty fine

i think you miss value by folding...

i think call > raise > fold, but its like 46/44/10