5 card draw question about taking only two
 

Say you get dealt QQK45. Limit, heads up. Do you hold QQ or QQK and what is your logic for doing so?

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

it depends on opponent, situation etc. tho i take 3 95% of the time. my logic is because it feels right. i don't know whether the maths is right.

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

I'd take 3 almost all of the time. I don't play HU much. It wouldn't be for deception. It's just so unlikely that the kicker will end up mattering.

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

Was the Hand dealt Heads Up or did it end up Heads Up on the Draw ina Full Ring Game?

If it's a heads up match, there really is no point in keeping the King. You're involved in many more hands in HU than you are full ring, so the chances that either player is dealt a Set to play with is rather slim. Draw 3 or draw 2, the other player will have you on a pair in both cases. Drawing 2 might look like a lower pair though, although generally keeping a kicker to your pair is only useful if you are aiming to beat two pair with a higher pair than yours and beating that hand precisely. You might sometimes keep the kicker for deception, especially for when you really are dealt a set. Out of Position I would generally draw 3 here, drawing 2 won't really make the other player behave differently, but you lower your chances of hitting a good hand.

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

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Out of Position I would generally draw 3 here, drawing 2 won't really make the other player behave differently, but you lower your chances of hitting a good hand.

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You lower your chances of hitting a set, you increase your chances of improving to 2 pair slightly.

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

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Out of Position I would generally draw 3 here, drawing 2 won't really make the other player behave differently, but you lower your chances of hitting a good hand.

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You lower your chances of hitting a set, you increase your chances of improving to 2 pair slightly.

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Please elaborate.

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

...meaning your chance of ending up with precisely 2pr will be higher, however this comes from the lessened probabilty of trips; overall you improve less, ldo.

OP, whether u always d(2), always d(3), or some of both, won't make hardly a lick of difference in your winrate. d(3) gives u a slightly better average showdown hand, d(2) makes it slightly more likely your opponent will misplay his hand. not a whole lot between them, remember you are still gonna miss most of the time no matter how many you draw. what IS important is to align your drawing on these type of hands with how you play your XX/A, AA/X, trips, or whatever, and with how your opponent reacts. I personaaly d(3) the vast majority of times, but versus certain opponents, or if the action has gone a certain way, i'll see d(2) as the +EV thing to do. I could never explain in words when and why, its an expierience/feel thing i guess. But im certain anyone advising you to "always d(3)" is being overly simplistic.

something that will have a much greater effect on yr winrate is how you adapt to an opponent who routinely d(2). it can be tricky as [censored] if you don't observe/notetake well.

You'll find most "good" players prefer to d(3) because: i) they aren't in there with shorts very much in the first place, so needn't d(2) on their good pairs as a foil for other times they have bad pairs, ii) good players tend to play versus at least decent opponents, ones who you can give credit for putting you on a range even before u draw, so you arent fooling/confusing them near as much as you would versus a fish, and iii) you'll get WAY more action when you draw into monsters if your opponent saw you d(3).

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

You always draw three to QQK; the only exception might be
that you somehow knew your opponent had a pair of queens as
well (but how could you know that?). The only time to keep
a king kicker is if you have AAKxy and knew your lone
opponent could only have either AA or KK. Another spot
is when you open raise and are against the two blinds that
both draw three and you know the SB has AA and you have AAK
(doesn't matter what pair the BB has).

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

I'm starting to think there aren't enough poor opinions on this forum to confuse new comers and that we're actually giving away free advice. I guess that's cool.

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

[ QUOTE ]
You always draw three to QQK; the only exception might be
that you somehow knew your opponent had a pair of queens as
well (but how could you know that?). The only time to keep
a king kicker is if you have AAKxy and knew your lone
opponent could only have either AA or KK. Another spot
is when you open raise and are against the two blinds that
both draw three and you know the SB has AA and you have AAK
(doesn't matter what pair the BB has).

[/ QUOTE ]

If we have QQA I'd assume it might be better to keep the ace than keep a king?

I wasn't doing the play for deception really.

I think the thing which I don't understand is why does drawing one extra card to the queen matter so much? We are playing limit and half the time we hit our hand we only win like zero or one more bets.

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You always draw three to QQK; the only exception might be
that you somehow knew your opponent had a pair of queens as
well (but how could you know that?). The only time to keep
a king kicker is if you have AAKxy and knew your lone
opponent could only have either AA or KK. Another spot
is when you open raise and are against the two blinds that
both draw three and you know the SB has AA and you have AAK
(doesn't matter what pair the BB has).

[/ QUOTE ]

If we have QQA I'd assume it might be better to keep the ace than keep a king?

I wasn't doing the play for deception really.

I think the thing which I don't understand is why does drawing one extra card to the queen matter so much? We are playing limit and half the time we hit our hand we only win like zero or one more bets.

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Personally, I think that this illustrates the difference between what you would do in limit vs pot/no-limit... In limit, I'd be with the 95% of always drawing 3. I can chose, based on the player, whether or not I call. The pot's usually big enough that making the call unimproved vs a 1-card is usually correct if I think the person is capable of bluffing.

In pot/no-limit draw, so many people will call with draws and then bluff whether they got there or not HU, that I'll keep the kicker (HU) more than in limit so that I don't have to face the big bet post (they can't represent a better hand if I'm already representing a better hand...).

As a side note, since I do this, I pretty much never false card trips unless I'm HU w/ a 3card.

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

I think the biggest situation to take 2 would be when your up against an opponent who likes to lead into you.

Let's say you raise queens from the button and the BB calls. He takes 3, If he likes to lead I will take 2 so he will have to think twice about leading out. Then I can check down or bet depending on what happens.

Re: 5 card draw question about taking only two
 

Another thing about drawing 2 or 3. The actual odds isn't enough to even make me care what is better, but mixing it up is priceless